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"Boundaries are for cattle. Human beings do NOT pay attention to boundaries".
When I think on that, it is perhaps true? We so often have discussions of setting boundaries, and people so often tell us that they are ignored; recently one of our more "bright" responders said "The boundaries are for YOU, not them." Indicating that when we set boundaries we better have a good electric fence. Because in my experience even cattle don't pay boundaries without fencing a whole lot of mind.
How many made a difference with the setting of boundaries?

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@MommaB..............you are stone cold RIGHT.
Boundaries are set up BY you, ABOUT you and FOR you. They have nothing to do with anyone else other than they will know the consequences of violating your set boundaries. Think of them as a bit of a small fence run through with electricity. The cow looks at it and thinks "easy peasy" but when it approaches it learns better. Doesn't kill them. Just lets them know "this far and no farther."

Dr Laura, who I have listened to for DECADES, is quite against abusive parents. I think you should perhaps give her another try. In fact she was raised in abuse. And had no relationship with a mother and a sister because of it. Good boundaries, don't you know. She is no nonsense, and she will not be manipulated. For those who depend upon manipulation as a way of life, Dr. L. is, I would think anathema. She's pretty much my hero. And that given that I often disagree with her on a whole lot (Choice, and so on).

So far be it from me to defend Dr. L. and she surely doesn't after years of advice NEED my defense. But there you are. Welcome to the Forum where we agree often, to DISagree, and quite happily!
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I'm not familiar with Dr Laura's advice but have read the book of Cloud and Townsend on boundaries, so I can discuss it from that perspective. Well, assuming we are discussing here: boundaries with elderly family members we are caring for (who more often that not on this thread have dementia), then yes, for sure the boundaries are more for my benefit than theirs!

Depending on the person's personality, and level of dementia, he or she may well keep coming up to the fence when people with competence would think they would have learned not to, at the same time they can learn also. So the breaching of boundaries can be reduced.
But, even if they keep approaching, the main benefit is for me, so that I recognize when that fence has been reached, and say what I need to say at the time, so it protects my space!
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When I see "Dr. Laura" I remember when my abusive parents used her parenting advice to justify their abuse and be even more so.

Even the devil can recite scripture for his own purpose. Sometimes, Dr. Laura is spot on. That doesn't make her opinion on anything, really, the be all end all.

That said, I learned about boundaries, not from Dr. Laura, but from many other sources while dealing with an abusive partner. Boundaries you set are for YOU, not them. They are the line you draw that YOU will not cross, because you can and should always expect that people WILL cross them, intentionally, and unintentionally. The boundary is how YOU will react and respond to the stressor or conflict. Not how you should and can expect someone else to not "make you go there."
If we are going to use an electric fence as an example, it would be like knowing that fence is electrified, and knowing YOU might even just accidentally touch it responding to being tempted to approach it by someone or something on the other side, YOU stay away from it. FAR away from it. If they cross the fence and are electrocuted, that's on them. It's not putting up the electric fence, then standing just inside it, warning the people or things on the other side not to touch it.

And, no matter what boundary you draw, and whom you intend for that boundary to determine their behavior in relation to it, you are still human, and you will still have reactions and responses that you will wish you had not. You will still, from time to time, zap yourself, because you are human with human responses.
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@Alva and @Geaton

Personally, I find Dr. Laura to be too right-wing. Her advice isn't wrong, but she totally lacks compassion and empathy. I'm a believer in tough lovefor a person's own good and being a 'straight-shooter' but when that isn't tempered with mercy and compassion it just makes a person a bully. Dr. Laura seems like a bully to me.
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I have to say, when my family hits my boundaries they usually act like they hit a 10k volt electric fence.

My boundaries protect me from others bs. If that shocks them, oh well! They should be happy it wasn't with an actual cattle prod, because that is where I would go if they didn't back away from the boundary.
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Boundaries are great, sence joining here, I'm bounding myself right out of all my friends. 😂 They where friends that needed to go anyways.
To be honest, I have such a mouth on me lately. These narssasist I use to have in my life can't handle me anymore! 😜

Alva, I always wanted to go to an Al-Anon meeting, years ago, the first time I got help for codependency, , ex was an over eater and over spender. I enabled him to become extremely obese and us broke.

At the time I thought it was for families of addicts. I did get my help though therapy and books. But I'm sure it would of helped me greatly.
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AA-Al-Anon: I think people could save themselves years of therapy by going to one or both quite honestly. Even without alcoholism on the horizon. I say that as a lifelong atheist. I have twice attended, once with my brother who lived with an alcoholic at the time. Once involving a family member who suffered a massive brain injury due to hidden alcoholism. Talk about no nonsense straight shooting and not allowing anyone to get by with anything with the usual excuses! And the stories. So much of reality but still never letting go of hope, and hope being grounded in honesty. I recommend AA and Al-Anon all the time on AC. To me they are marvels of support and pointers, and I never felt so embraced.
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The boundaries are for me . They keep me from giving in to going back to being a people pleaser . The wall I built is named “ No “. And yes it has made a difference .
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I took the Boundaries class based on the book by Cloud and Townsend. There were about 20 people in the class and it was soon apparent each, including me, came in because of some issue in our lives, most of us with a specific person or people. For me, I have a sibling with lifelong undiagnosed mental illness. My dad was his ultimate protector, defender, and enabler. My sibling’s behaviors ruined countless family meals and events. He’s still unstable, and varies from polite to rude to mean within seconds. Boundaries taught me far better how to protect myself and deal with him. I was also there because of a friend who was (the too often used, but I can’t think of a better word) narcissistic and toxic. Before Boundaries, I truly didn’t know how to get away from her. It gave me the tools and strength to make the break.
Alva is correct, boundaries are never for the other person, no one can trample your boundaries since they are yours and you can choose not to allow it. I now can easily remove myself without explanation, justifying, or apology when a situation becomes unhealthy for me. That’s a boundary.
The analogy of a boundary of being a fence around your life to keep out the bad, but with a gate in it to let in the good still holds, and not just for cattle.
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Lea, that's why I suspect that most use religion as an excuse.
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The 12 Steps are The 12 Steps, they don't differ according to one's issue. They're careful to use words that avoid religiosity for those who are "turned off" by asking a Higher Power for help with something serious that's become unmanageable. Applying 12 Step principles to codependency issues isn't quite the same thing as applying the Steps to alcoholism or drug addiction, imo. Once a person, even an atheist, hits rock bottom, you'd be surprised what they become willing to do to get clean and sober. And many folks even find their own version of God along the way. I've never found anything to "tone down" in any AA meeting I've ever attended. Only the cold hard truth is spoken in those rooms, which can be hard to listen to for some. A person has to be willing to listen to those truths in order to begin recovery.

Geaton, not everybody can handle straight shooters! 😊
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Alva, I used to listen to the Dr. Laura Show on AM radio every week day afternoon while sitting in the carpool lane at my kid's school (back in the day). Listened to her for many many years. She also used to say that a parent could "love their child right into prison" through enabling and other dysfunctional relationship dynamics. She is a straight shooter.
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I did some of the 12 steps for codependency, one of Melody Beatty's books, it really can help with. A lot of issues, of codependency.

Ive heard a lot of people get turn of with the religious aspects of of AA, or it's an excuse. I wish they would maybe tone it down a little.

Alva, Good to know about the vaccines. Modern effects me more than the other one. That my mind went blank on. 😆
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Burnt, I am a HUGE fan of Dr Laura and quote her all the time: "Not everything can be fixed" and "Just be polite". To me she levels with people and could save them years of therapy IF they listened. Most will not, because her stuff is too tough. I have listened to her for decades and decades.

As an aside kids, the new covid vac? Must be Moderna because it's the only one I react to; sadly I didn't even both to ask as last shots so easy. THIS ONE huge reaction. Flushed, feverish, joints and bones so sore it hurts to turn and headache. Just don't try to go to work on this one till you know if you react. If you're still working and intend to get it I recommend waiting to Friday. Boy, this one takes the cake!

Burnt, agree with you on AA and Al-Anon and think we should all go whether there's an alcoholic in our lives or not.
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Therapy and Al-Anon helped me to learn how to set boundaries and demand they be respected without allowing guilt-trips or gaslighting to decide for me and this was the best thing I ever did for myself. It gave me a whole new sense of autonomy and self-respect.

I am not a fan of Dr. Laura. She's completely full of the brown stuff on this one about boundaries being for cattle and not people. When the cattle aren't respecting the boundaries the cowboys rope them up and force them to. Sometimes people have to be their own cowboys and force others to respect their boundaries and limits or you ride off into the sunset as they say and don't look back.

Our country (if you're in the U.S.) is founded on:

Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

These are guaranteed American rights, but without having personal boundaries with others they are not possible.

Setting a personal boundary with other people can mean changing an unhealthy relationship or ending it altogether. It can mean making a tough and painful decision to stop enabling someone to continue in a dangerous lifestyle. Or not covering every inch of ground for and obeying the commands of a demented senior who won't accept help and change. It can also be about accepting whatever happens as a result of you respecting your own boundaries and not guilting and punishing yourself for doing nothing wrong when it does.

No one has to be a pushover or a doormat because of another person's neediness or control issues. Forget that.




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Setting down boundaries with my mother did help bc I stuck to them. For instance, I'd get up and leave if she got ranting or started insulting me. Every time. Or I'd cut the phone call short if the complaining got too intense. I felt it was important we respect one another, and if that could not be accomplished, there was no need for me to add to my pain by staying in her presence and being her whipping post. Even with dementia, my mother knew I'd stick to my guns. Whether SHE respected or acknowledged MY boundaries or not was irrelevant. I MYSELF needed to respect them. Same with raising children.
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Oh I so agree with that , not only setting boundaries.

But also I think everyone should learn to respect boundaries others set.

I have ended so many friendships because of people butting into my business to much.

You want to come in my house and tell me, my lamp shades are to small. Don't let the door hit you on your way out!!
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