I've posted before about in-law care-giving. Aged mother in law, lives in same town.
We are at the tail end of a visit from sister in law from several states away. Sister in law has been here for 3 weeks caring for her mother. A much welcome respite.
It had been discussed, prior to her arrival here on the scene, she would be talking it over with her mother, to try and get her mom to come up to her home, for a stay of maybe a few months.
This, in my opinion, is absolutely essential, as I am expecting twin grand-children, due in about 1 month (if they don't come sooner, as is the case a lot of times with multiples pregnancies). The expectant mother also lives locally here, and has a 4 year old daughter. I will be on that front, helping .. as much as is needed. And not on the front with mother in law and care-giving, and have made that as obvious and apparent as I know how to make it. It would be great if mother in law would agree to go to her daughter's home (several states away) for a period of a few months .. and allow me the latitude to put my energies where I want them to be, on my daughter who will have had a c-section .. and my grand-daughter (4 years old) and new twin babies.
Nothing doing. Mother in law has dug in her heels, and will not hear of it, going to stay with her daughter for any period of time.
What are her reasons?
In mother in law's defense ... her daughter ... I don't even know how to describe it. I will say that when her daughter comes here to visit, she all but breathes for her mother and if she could find a way to do that, she'd do that too. She is the most nervous nelly, never sit down - ever ... worry wart, do everything, all the time .. person that I've ever encountered.
A great example, as I was taking her to the airport yesterday for her departure, . I reached into the fridge to grab myself a bottled water and shut the fridge and turned to walk away, as I've done for all of my 50 plus years living on this earth .. and she said to me, "Oh make sure that fridge shut". WTH???? Like I don't know how to shut a fridge? That's just a small, very small slice of what she is ... how she is.
She is so very hyper-vigilant, seeing to every minute details down to it's finest most minuscule point, fine tooth comb, questioning every point along the way, "should we do thus and so, but maybe if we do thus and so, then such and such will happen, maybe we should do it thus and so .. but then so and so might happen, maybe we shouldn't do thus and so, but do "x" "y" and "z" instead, but if we don't do it that way then ..........", on and on and on and on it goes. And usually in hyper warp speed, as to every single friggin thing.
If her mother moans .. "what's wrong mother?, why did you moan, are you alright?".
Mother: "Yes, I'm fine, I was just sighing out loud".
Sister: "Why did you sigh? Are you hurting, are you sure you're alright, why are you sighing what's the matter?"
Mother: "For God's sake __________________, I was just sighing, .. calm down, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, .. because if something is wrong you need to tell me".
Mother: "Everything is fine, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, we did a lot yesterday, did we do too much, maybe we shouldn't of gone to two doctors in one day .. was that too much for you, are you too tired now, maybe we need to move those other doctor appointments so we won't have two in one day, is that too much for you, for one day .. is that why you were sighing .. what's wrong, are you sure you're alright".
Hopefully that kinda gives a little bit of a snapshot of what goes on when sister is in the ring directing things.
So in mother in law's defense.. I do get it, why she wouldn't be chomping at the bit to go to her daughter's home.
BUT ....
The only experience she has with her daughter, in the last years as mother in law has aged and been unable to go anywhere much, has been the daughter coming here, periodically, for periods of about 3 weeks at a stretch. When her daughter comes here, she moves heaven and earth for her mother and then some, and doesn't sit down, doesn't stop .. the WHOLE ENTIRE TIME.
Is there a possibility maybe (as I said to mother in law, when she expressed that isn't happening - talking to me - her going to her daughters .. ever) .. could it be possible that maybe if you would go to where she lives .. she'd be more busy managing her own life in that setting than your's and she would get out of your backside .. and not be as hyper-drive-vigilant as you experience in her, when she's here, could that be possible.
The daughter is retired, lives several states away. Does come here, generally, every few months .. and stays for a period of about 3 weeks at a stretch. I wish I could make a list of everything the daughter did when here this last time, but it would take up the whole character allotment:
I don't think she would opt to have that medication regiment removed from her spread of pills (even though she doesn't always take them).
No there isn't any cure for CHF .. but it is "treatable".
I understand not wanting to get involved any more in the drama, and it wouldn't have to even be you, maybe your husband or someone could call and just have them go over there.
I'm thinking if they took her in, they'd first take her to the hospital to get her stabilized physically and then admit her to the geriatric unit of a psych facility.
But not your mom so you refuse to entertain or listen to this woman who was suppose to be your friend and MIL, not to mention a wonderful grandma to your kids. When she says maybe hospice fits the bill better.
So let her suffer and die, no ones fault, oh by the way, you are the one that has found fault with your husband, and as far as he would have behaved in a certain way had you talked to him prior to talking to his mom, guess no one will ever know, you didn't give him the opportunity.
Time to put your big girl panties on and stop trying to run things with your passive aggressive control behaviours.
If she ever meant anything to you, you need to listen to her and ask her how she sees all of this, so far you and SIL have been the ones to talk about it, do you even know if any of it is on MIL radar? Your SIL has led you on merry chases before without your MIL being aware.
I just pray that someone will help your MIL to not die in agony feeling like an unloved burden to people, your words, that she has been good too. (BTW, we all have our own chit, including me and including you)
You don't have to be close to death to qualify for hospice.
You don't have to be housebound for either palliative care or hospice, as far as I know.
DH is, as usual, dismissive of anything suggested by Dorker.
Anyone else notice that?
I did agree with Dorker about stepping away but I also thought by doing so it would prompt her children to take over. Now I see that’s not going to happen, which is very disappointing.
But...there still is a vulnerable 88 y/o woman who needs supervision & help. I don’t know if I could go see that vulnerability every week & ignore what I have seen. How does anyone know if MIL is filling her med planner correctly?
And apparently she eats everything when taken out for lunch but doesn’t eat at home. How can anyone continue to let that happen?
At this point it’s just mean and non Christian. That’s what is so perplexing. Everyone in Dorker’s family goes to Church and then once they leave become the total opposite. Honor thy Mother? Oh, Ok.... the “old dog needs to die” (nice), and no one needs MIL’s drama.
So what’s the purpose of going once a week? To assuage your guilt? To put away laundry when the woman is clearly compromised?
How Christian is that?
I know that if I saw an elderly woman failing, no matter if they were family or not, I would do something. Make things she likes to eat and drop it off, make sure she has her meds, etc. At her age she will never be tech savvy- expecting her to use Gogograndma, Uber, or anything isn’t going to happen. Nor will she feel comfortable ordering food on line. I remember my mom couldn’t even figure out the proper way to hold my cellphone for her to talk to her sister!
How can anyone be half in?
BTW was MIL a narcissist when she was talking your kids camping, or all the other nice things she did when those kids were growing up?
Most elderMy folk are overfocused on themselves due to the fact that their world has gotten so small from aging and their senses aren’t as astute as they were. Their hearing gets bad, vision, mobility diminishes. Narcissistic? Perhaps but they shouldn’t be judged as having that very serious personality disorder just because they are old.
I still would call APS. It may force a needs assessment when they witness an old woman shuffling to open the door because her legs are swollen, and witness her fatigue as well.
This is elder abuse on the part of her family. It is problematic that everyone thinks this is ok, because it’s not.
Dorker is burned out. I get that. Then don’t go there. Why do you? So every week you are still in the same position you were last year - informing her son of his mother’s needs and him ignoring your suggestions again and again?
Forget the MOW drivers - I don’t even know why they continue to be mentioned.
Who does anyone have in life that one can depend on if it isn’t family?
Ignoring her needs is just not Christian.
Just what is Dorker supposed to do? She's now set clear limits on what she will do for MIL (give her 1/2 day/week).
There has been plenty of criticism of H and SIL. But they don't have magic wands to force MIL into accepting help, going to a facility, or whatever.
And THAT is the elephant in the room. MIL is legally competent, and no one can force her to do anything. She is living the life she wants to live. No one has to enable her to do so, though, and that is what has greatly decreased since Dorker has (rightfully so!) stepped away. H has long since acquiesced to MIL's desire to live alone. SIL can't force MIL to come live with her.
Until MIL has her medical crisis that will prevent her going home to live alone again, I just don't understand what it is that Dorker and SIL and H are supposed to do, as long as the overriding issue remains that MIL is legally competent to make her own decisions.
I'm saying that MIL said " Hospice would be a better fit" and no one is doing anything about that.
SIL always said " MIL won't hear of strangers coming to help" but when she arranged for the church ministry ladies to come for a chat, MIL accepted them and now apparently has called them for help.
My mom's default setting wss " no, I can't do that". We had to introduce an idea, walk her through the steps, wait for her to digest it and often she'd say
" maybe".
This is the nature of old age. Shrinking world, lack of ability to adapt to new technology. Fear of new situations and the inability to cope with the unfamiliar.
Her loss of planning ability is a function of cognitive loss.
Her resistance to grocery delivery and mobile vet may be due to straightened financial circumstances. Who manages her money? Is she accurate with that? Does she know what she can and can't afford? Do you?
Dorker, I think your husband and sister in law are both idiots. I think they are terrified of mommy, and terrified of mommy dying.
In your shoes, I would make an appointment for MIL to see her PCP. I'd have a discussion about the fact that MIL lives alone and has no reliable help. I'd discuss her medical condition and ask if she's eligible for palliative or hospice care and discuss if MIL wants to avail herself of those options.
Her doctor is a mandated reporter. I would need to know that some outside person is seeing what you are seeing.
If her doc isn't worried about her CHF and edema, maybe it's not so bad.
Dorker, I think for your own future peace of mind, you need to separate MIl's real needs from SIL's directives from afar.
The dog had a real need. He was sick. That's different from the dog food.
It's the difference between MIL lying on the floor and her floors being sticky.
Our concern on this thread should be with Dorker. I suspect from what Dorker has told us previously, that neither SIL nor H is going to accept hospice or palliative care. And Dorker cannot reasonably be expected to put into someplace a plan of care for MIL that MIL's children don't want. Right?
It's what MIL wants that counts.
I'm not asking Dorker to take on anything more than taking MIL to her pcp and getting a listen to MIL's chest and discussion of living alone and hospice.
This is simply a response to MIL's mention of hospice.
It's a way of getting off the carousel that were on here.
That hasn't changed. It still take a whole lot of propping up .. and no one is in that role any longer. I knew, when I stepped away there'd be a lot of loose ends .. lots of need that went unanswered. Thus the reason I was engaged as deeply as I was for far too long.
The need has only increased. And will continue to do so.
I don't think that SIL and DH are "terrified" of her and any wrath. I think their inaction is born in some place that they see their mother's days waning .. (who knows how long, 2 weeks, 2 years, 10 years .. who knows) .. they want her to be "happy". They think she deserves "happiness" (to the extent that can be achieved). One knows, in this situation .. her happiness .... if at all ... is in being entrenched in her beloved home, with her precious dog. They don't wish to cause their mom, again .. "in her waning" days .. to be unhappy/sad. I think that's the root of it all, not so much fear of her wrath and causing her disappointment, etc.
So what remains?
The very setting that I (for good reason) stepped away from. All that it takes to prop all of it up.
SIL when she was here, momentarily entertained the notion of bringing in 8 hours weekly of HHC. I agreed .. (being the one who handles financial matters for our household and our budget) to pay what would be our portion of any expense thereof, so as to seeing to MIL's many needs/wants/whims. That plan was nixed, due to expense (not on our behalf, I had agreed to our portion of what that would equate to).
It was said instead .. now finally (apparently) agreed to .. that there would be add'l parties brought to bear in the propping up it takes ...
MOW drivers approached as to errands, etc. (so it's said). That has yet to come to any fruition ..
Flighty C next door also summoned. Flighty C has called MIL one time, in the just over a month that SIL has been gone, to check if MIL would like to visit the grocery store. That was prompted by SIL from afar. Flighty C is to be commended that she and her husband, apparently of their own fruition, took it upon themselves to bring over the makings of a fish fry and prepare and enjoy same, all under MIL's roof, to visit with her and provide a meal.
The church ladies were summoned. They, one or the other, has visited once weekly since that was agreed to. MIL had two doc appts in her imminent future and she asked me to see to one of them, which falls on a Thursday, which I did .. (I didn't refuse to be a part of that scene). She has another doc appt in her immediate future, a Tuesday appt and has asked one of the church ladies to accommodate for that issue, and that has been agreed to.
What we still have however, is someone who doesn't:
Adequately manage her nutrition
Adequately manage her meds
Is a fall risk
Same as it ever was, as the song says.
There was a time that I was in the front row on it all, all of it. The dog needs, the MIL needs, and prompting action from DH .. causing fights/friction in our home as to it all.
The ever continual chorus of "she can manage" being the mantra of the hour/day/week/month. As SIL waltzed into town periodically and walked on water like no other, managing the 40 spinning plates in the air, at all times. Only to watch her leave again . and my protests that she doesn't manage .. not without someone who walks on water and balances 40 spinning plates at one time ..
Nothing has changed, as to her needs. And it won't, it will only grow worse.
But by golly she is entrenched where she wants to be, in her beloved home. I would probably feel the same as she does .. and not want to be uprooted from my home.
But I think where I would differ is that I'd be far more willing (I think I would, I haven't walked this walk, but I may one day) and I would be more forthcoming with the realization that I am causing my offspring more anguish than is necessary in their having to *manage from afar* as SIL tries to do .. my Daughter in Law as she has now backed away in large measure, unable to do it all for her ... and I would agree to go .. and get the help I so sorely need .. from the one person in all of this, .. who has agreed to take her in to do just that, her daughter.
I can . the next time I'm there, .. I can have frank discussion with MIL, it's been done countless times before. I can ask her, "Hey MIL last time when I was here, I was talking to you about Palliative Care and you mentioned you think Hospice more fits the bill, .. was that something you'd like to pursue .. is that something you'd like help to look into, if so I would be more than happy to see what we can do to get that addressed".
I can do the above, and I will.
And I will be reporting back here that she will say something along these lines: (as she routinely says)
"I just want to get back to where I can do the things I enjoy in life .... I'd like to be able to get to the point I can take my little dog for walks ... I just want to get to where I can do things that I enjoy doing"
This kind of train of thought, discussion .. it goes on routinely with her. The above . is said .. quite often by her. In fact, she said as much to the PA the other day at the ortho doc for her knee injections as it was discussed .. superficially anyway .. as to any TKR. Her telling the PA that she'd like to get back to where she can just use a cane again, rather than the walker, better yet if she could walk without even a cane. The PA suggesting some PT .. the PA suggesting and demonstrating some leg exercises that can be done from her bed, from a seated position to strengthen muscles around the knee.
Of course, my feelings on that topic .. my thought process ... that ship has likely sailed.
I bet I could go there and ask her today, "so how's it going with those leg exercises the PA suggested".
And the answer would be, she hasn't even attempted, any of them. So be it .. her life .. her existence ...
If there is ANY hope that she will gain enough strength at all, to even be able to have any function in her daily existence, at all .. it certainly lies somewhere in the PT that she needs. Absolutely. It certainly wouldn't hurt, that's for sure.
So how to get that answered to. Does Dorker then step up to the plate in that step n fetch role? So that MIL who is weak and growing weaker and more frail, now take that ball and run with it, along with the other need that exists routinely. How to get that spoken to.
I could approach the whole piece about Hospice, and I can tell you right now, the above will be what is reported back here ... that she will begin with the dialogue that she just wants to get better.
She doesn't want to die .. if she did .. she would throw the MOW's in the trash where no one sees that she isn't eating .. she would cease all meds and direct that Hospice be brought to the forefront and inform that's precisely what she wants ..
She wants to get better, . and more able to do the things she enjoys in life. Wouldn't we all.
So the next logical point in any dialogue on Hospice, .... "that sounds great MIL .. I know that you so want to get back to a point that you can do some of the things you enjoy doing. Ya know, seems to me that it lies somewhere in your ability to stay strong enough to do just that .. maybe some of that PT they've recommended, . sounds like that might at least help to get there, .. what do you say?".
I'm telling you guys, this will be what is reported back here, as a result of any discussion on any Hospice set up. I don't think for one nano second that I will approach that topic (but I will .. I'll approach it) that she will respond, .. anything even closely resembling, 'ya know I'm so glad you brought that up, I do wonder what that might mean ..and how that would work, would you be so kind as to help me explore that .. what can we do to look into that'. It's not gonna happen. I will approach it, .. and ask her, but you can take it to the bank .. that too will be rejected.
She only said what she did .. just as a means of .. I'm sure .. to her, and her diminished life .. death looks a lot more appealing than what this poor existence equates to. But does she actually wanna sign on the dotted line and take that fork in the road .. to her final destination? I don't think so, no. She only said what she did, to divert from any change in course, which was . being approached as Palliative Care at that point.
It's not gonna happen that way, that somehow there is this epiphany that she wants Hospice brought on board and a direction to her demise.
She wants to get better. In her small world, in her small existence .. she thinks that she can somehow get better and maybe even put that blasted walker in the trash can .. and the cane too .. and be out and about with her little doggie going for walks.
"So MIL .. what do ya say ...???..... think that PT might prove beneficial to help start you down the road to getting stronger?, what do ya think?".
You will hear her say things like, "I just am not able to do that .. you know, I sit here day after day .. and I can't even muster the strength to even get dressed, ya know . .. I go back there and think about going the steps to begin to get myself dressed for the day and it's more than I can do .. you know, I just want to get strong enough I can do these things .. that I can get dressed for the day .. that I can get out and about to take my little dog for walks, .. or go to the grocery store on my own .. that's what I want".
And so you again, circle back, "yea .. ya know .. I realize it's all such a struggle for you .. it really is.. I see that ... but ya know, starting to gain any strength .. that's gotta begin with at least some PT .. and so how do you think that might be achieved, .. is that something you'd like to look at".
Round and round it will go, more dialogue on her inability to be strong enough to even get dressed for the day, that it's more than she can do .. etc. So you then suggest we get those PT folks back onto the scene, coming to her home .. in home PT. That will be met with the same thing she has also repeatedly said, .. "it's a dog and pony show .. I'm just not up to it .. they come here and I feel like I have to be *ON* as in .. entertaining them, talking with them .. and that's just more than I'm able to do .. I just am not able".
That's how all this goes .. it always circles back to what she wishes .. which is to get stronger and do the things she enjoys doing, .. always. But then you approach what needs to occur to help that process as to forward motion .. and it circles back to what she just isn't able to do.
So fine .. approach her son and her daughter ... OY VEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Been there/done that .. how many countless times on any number of topics through the years .. all to no avail. Get them on board, .. "hey your mom mentioned Hospice .. think that's something you need to talk to her about .. maybe approach that and see if she's serious .. see if it's something she really wants".
Yea I could do that, in talking with DH .. or call his sister and mention it .. that too, .. will go the circuitous route it goes with MIL .. "she doesn't want to die .. she just wants to get better .. she wants to get stronger and able to do things .. she's just defeated".
Okay so how do we achieve that .. what's the approach.
There ya have it .. If I've heard it once I've heard it a million times .. "she's just so stubborn". That will be the responses.
I will . .when I go this Thursday I will, most definitely .. I will bring up Palliative Care again, .. as well as mentioning to her the Visiting Physicians that will come to her, as opposed to her going to them .. I will bring up Hospice .. and see what her take is .. I will most definitely go there with her, in discussion. I don't have a problem in the world in bringing forward suggestion .. have done so through the years.
Was very telling this morning listening to DH when he called his mom to ask .. how is she, Happy Mother's Day .. that he'd like to come get her after church, maybe go to her favorite little seafood dive for lunch .. and her . .. you could tell by his responses .. she was rejecting the notion of getting "ready" to go anywhere .. unable to do so, but not only that, ..it was evident that she was pushing an agenda that he is being "forced" somehow to see to her .. as to Mother's Day and .. saying things to him (he told me later) like, "No, now you need to stay home and see to the mother of your children today .. that's what you need to be doing, what are you doing for Dorker .. what are you seeing to about Dorker .. that's what you need to be doing. Where is Dorker .. is she the one that put you up to calling me".
**and no, I hadn't sat there and prompted that he take any action and call his mother and/or make plans**.
In the end, . it sounds like we will, or he will . whatever .. take something to her, her unable to get out and go anywhere.
Maybe if I'm with the both of them, .. I will bring up the Hospice thing again, in his presence, .. "Hey MIL when I was here the other day .. I brought up that Palliative Care thing and you said Hospice more fits the bill .. is that anything you'd like to discuss with the both of us .. we've got your son here .. and of course, I'll be glad to discuss it with you, if that's something you'd like to talk about".
And on the cognitive impairment that reduces the executive level functionality .. and her unable to manage technology as to GOGOGRANDPARENT or smartphones. I have absolute no compunction to believe she capable of managing that aspect. None. No expectation on my part that she somehow at 88 yo learn technology. Nope.
I know that is an unreal expectation.
But .. let's look at the piece about her not eating. She mentions to SIL that the MOW's are just so bland .. that she's weary of them .. and would like thus and so to eat.
So .. does SIL then take that ball and run with it, SIL knows technology enough to do so. No .. she doesn't, she prompts from afar to attempt action on that front. Does SIL then go about the steps to maybe engage some of this supposed "team" that exists to step to that need. No, she doesn't.
Does MIL possess the capability to even know, understand that people do get take outs/delivery of meals. Yes, she has an awareness there . she isn't so far gone that she doesn't realize that people do get deliveries of said items. Does she possess the capability in her diminished cognitive function to be able to even question those in her hemisphere, .. "ya know, I know that people do call for delivery of things they'd like brought to them.. I just don't even know how that's done ... can you maybe show me how to do that, I sure would like some ___________ to eat, but I just don't even know how you go about doing that".
Does she have enough cognitive function to even arrive at the above. Yes, IMO, she does. No she can't use a smartphone .. not a chance. But she can pick up the telephone .. she can do that much .. she knows what a phone is, and how it's used.
Can she understand/comprehend, act on .. when she's told by ABC Seafood or whatever .. "mam we don't deliver .. but you can call so and so, they do" .. no .. that would throw her a curve ball she has lost the ability to comprehend and process.
But she could certainly ask Flighty C next door, she could certainly ask .. the church ladies .. she could certainly ask one of her g'kids .. her daughter in law (me) .. her daughter she talks to daily 2 and 3 x's .. her son .. etc. And she DOES possess enough function to be able to process that .. and act upon it. "Hey ya know, I tried to call ABC Seafood the other day .. I just wanted a little shrimp basket, that's all .. if they could deliver it .. I looked up their number and I called them .. and ya know . they said something about they don't deliver but so and so does and they were trying to tell me about it, but I just don't understand what that's all about .. is that something you can help me to figure out . it would sure be nice if I knew I could call and maybe once in a while have something delivered here, you know I'm just not able to get out and get anything .. and sometimes I just grow so weary of those bland MOW's, is that something you can help me to figure out how I can do that".
I can't think of a single soul named above that would refuse .. "no you ole batt .. not helping you to understand that .. just sit there and be happy with your boring MOW's".
No .. not a single soul that I named above would take that approach. The would help her, "oh sure, .. look .. here's how it works these days ... no .. these restaurants don't really wanna employ and pay someone to deliver .. for the most part .. so these other companies have started businesses and that's exactly what they do .. they go get the food from wherever you want it .. and they are the ones that bring it to you, so you call them .. look .. here's the phone number for this one .. here's the phone number for that one .. there's a few of them .. you can call them and they will deliver it right to your door ... and you pay them .. it's really not very hard", and then actually go about doing it, in her presence, acting on it, having her walk the steps ..
Inherent in all of this is the very real, on the ground, in real time .. premise that "she can manage", which has been said so often.
But she doesn't. And that's what started this whole damn thing .. she doesn't manage .. she truly does not.
But no one is going to take away from her, her most beloved wish .. to stay in her home with her dog she adores. No one.
So then who sees to the many needs/wants/whimsies ........... who does that?
Her dog was in need of a vet visit .. that gets put on the radar of YD and/or DH .. and both had plans already.
Is she capable at that point of any comprehension that the dog needs to be seen .. her unable to get in her car and see to said need .. what else can I do to get this addressed, both YD and DH are otherwise spoken for and not going to be able to step up to this need, what can I do at this point to see to it.
Yes, I do see her as being able to reason the above function. She could've reached out to Flighty C .. she could've reached out to MOW drivers (MOW drivers that it was sold to me .. or attempted anyway .. are also on board to help) .. she could've reached out to church ladies .. etc.
If she "can manage" .. part and parcel of that, is do it then. Manage.
She doesn't .. hasn't ... and thus the whole theme of this thread .. and it's origination.
She doesn't manage. Thus my fervent wish in all of it, that she find a need to live in a more supported structure. Be that with her daughter .. in an AL .. whatever.
That isn't to be .. apparently.
So what remains is her inability to "manage" and the fact that her two offspring .. the two people most vested in making sure her life is what it should/can be .. won't force any other setting on her. Their desire, ... that her waning days (however many there are remaining) .. be "happy" ones. Her being happy . hinges at least in part, on her firm entrenchment in her home with her dog she adores.
You have ... what remains. Medications not properly adhered to, nutrition not properly addressed .. and many other needs that crop up and remain at loose end.
And my hopping up and down and shouting from every rooftop .. doesn't change it one iota.
The only thing that changes any of it, is if Dorker is willing to be the step n fetch in it all .. that's the ONLY thing that addresses it all adequately. And Dorker's station in life has changed also. Dorker wants the ability at this point in her life, to manage her own life according to her own terms .. and not dictated by the whims of an elderly lady that yes was very good to me, through the years and even better to our children .. taking them on many adventures and enriching their childhoods. Dorker did step to the beat of that drum for many years. The need didn't abate .. and it wouldn't .. it's going to increase. But I am no longer willing to march to the beat of that drum and continually uproot my life on a daily basis to answer to that ever increasing need. I saw that show, was the star in it ..and bowed out.
I do go on my given Thursday and do what I can in that allotted time.
I even go .. almost 2 hours in advance of what I know will be a scheduled doc appt and I know of her situation .. no one there to prod her along as to forward progress and getting ready .. it won't happen. Do I throw in the towel and say "oh well, she's so far gone she can't even make forward progress on getting ready .. not gonna own that and show up there early .. that's on her to figure out .. she can't do it, screw it". No .. I go early so as to make sure she is progressing and in a timely manner so that we can actually get there, and do the doc appt., do I leave it to, .. Nope not mine to manage .. I go on Thursdays but doc appts not my deal .. no .. I go and answer to that as it was on my scheduled allotted time to do so.
While out .. I happen to be aware that she has had a hankering lately for something to eat that isn't MOW's. I happened to be starving myself at that time frame and so I suggest we go and get something out. I could've just as easily stopped at a handy store for a pack of crackers and soda and told MIL .. "I'm sure that MOW will be there when you get back". But I didn't .. I opted to take her .. and her decrepit .. can barely get from point A to B .. out to lunch. To address what I know as a need/want/whimsy these days.
I do what I can .. within the limitations that will keep me from loosing my own mind and my own ability to manage my life on a daily basis.
The fact that her offspring choose to allow the status quo to continue .. all in the hope/desire that she be "happy" in what are her waning days .. it's going to leave a lot of loose ends that go unmet and unanswered to, and a lot of frustration ..
There's not really a lot I can (or will) do to address that.
Dorker, EXCELLENT idea to bring up the Hospice/Palliative Care issue if you go to MIL's today with H with the shrimp basket for MIL. !!! Her response will be very telling. It will probably be just as you suspect. But it will be her response with H there to hear it.
I've been thinking of the parallel here between the mentally ill and elderly, in regards to their rights. Mentally ill can't be forced to take their meds, and so the saying goes that many "die with their rights on." Isn't this also the case with the elderly? As long as they are mentally competent (a low bar), they can also die "with their rights on."
How would *you* respond if your daughter in law casually dropped hospice into the conversation? Forget it.
Dorker, take a leaf out of DH's book and let MIL be. If que sera sera is her attitude, DH's attitude and frankly SIL's attitude too seeing as she hasn't done any strong-arming, then why not yours?
One of four things will happen.
1. She will fall and break something important. Thence to hospital, then to rehab, and from there if she wants to go home she'll have a heck of a lot of fast talking to do.
2. She will have a heart attack and probably die.
3. She will have a stroke and probably not die, unless she's lucky. If she doesn't die, it'll be the hospital-rehab-??? as above.
4. She will get frightened and give in.
It is frustrating, it does require you to do a lot of conscious steady breathing and feeling sick with anticipation; but it is Not Your Doing and Not Your Problem.
And her being unwillingly in an NH, climbing the walls and blaming you - you really think that would any more fun to watch?
Let her be. Time passes.
For whose benefit?
Relatively new here and reading these posts this morning my heart stopped reading mostly your exchange with MIL regarding PT. It's like you were in my mother's living room yesterday ( and the day before and the day before) The difference being that I'm secretly envious of your ability to create boundaries.
I began my Mother's day changing my mother's diaper while she clung to a safety bar and then served her tea and toast in her recliner in front of her tv.
I'm sorry to say but if I ever meet Steve Harvey or Pat Sajak I'm pinching them--- I hear the dinging sounds in my sleep !!!
My kids and grands are together and out to breakfast (they wanted to come here to mom's but that's not fair to them every holiday.)
I am the step and fetch you speak of and it's a self fulfilling job... the more I do the more is expected. Its been a long long road ...15 years and the last 3 have been 24/7 in her home. I don't know how this happened to me...what scares me is I was angry and resentful for awhile but I've reached a point of there is no point ... a very bleak place to be .. physically as well as emotionally.
I hope you enjoy your Mother's day and for your own sake stay the course and don't get sucked back in ..one of mom's physical therapists said to me " you're killing yourself here and for what . When you die your siblings will manage to figure something out"
Silentscreaming, what happened that you ended up taking care of your mother? I'm always curious as to how this happens, and why the siblings do nothing. Or do your siblings chip in and help? Who expected that you would keep doing more and more -- your mother, your siblings, or...?
I have been caught in situations of caregiving that were, in the beginning, done out a Christlike love and compassion. In a few, that "compassionate" service pretty quickly turned to servitude. I remember caring for one young mom's kids as she went through chemo. She'd sleep all day long while I tried to care for her 3 horribly behaved kids. She never emerged in a 10-12 hr day. I'd drag myself home, in tears and pain b/c I have a bad back and 2 of the kids had to be carried everywhere. Next morning I'd see a FB post with this young mom and her DH and kids having a "family dinner" at some pricey restaurant and extolling how much better she was doing. I was laying on an ice pad all night and taking pain meds to survive. This went on for more than a year before I woke up and stepped out.
I learned the hard way--Christ said turn the other cheek--don't stand there and be slapped to death! I have learned to give and do so compassionately, but within reason, too.
No elderly person in my neighborhood would fall into the cracks the way Dorker's MIL has--b/c she CHOOSES to be this way. People have offered help. She turns them away. You CANNOT FORCE someone to accept service or help.
All this fuss and nonsense is self limiting. CM is right. There are only so many "end results". Dorker, can you just let it go?? Really, talk to your therapist and learn some
letting go mantras.
I would absolutely NOT be a part of an EOL discussion with DH and his mom. She'll assume you're behind it. You don't need that. Just go along with him, or don't. Up to you. (I DO NOT do mother's day lunch with my MIL, it's great to have bowed out many years ago). My DH came back from a business trip early just to take his mother to lunch.....not for me. 'Cause I'm NOT his mother.. :) Sometimes we have to smile through gritted teeth. )
As to the visit with the PCP and mentioning ALF's--I did take my FIL to the oncologist's once--his last visit with him. Dr. asked if he had in home help (looking at me, I was running to his place 3xs a day, but he was not going to live with us) and he hemmed and hawed and I finally asked if I could speak for him, he agreed and I said "No, he lives alone. I come out 2-3xs a day to feed, help bathe and clean". Dr. looked at dad and said "That's not right. You're killing your DIL. You need to be in a Nursing Home. I'll start the paperwork today, you have a preference?".
Dad died 3 days later. I guess he would rather die than live in a NH.
I know even for me, there is a difference between someone telling me, "You NEED to do xyz" or "Have you done ____ yet?" than if someone told me my kids or someone really needed me to do it, or asking me could I do it for them, does that make sense? I guess like the difference between feeling like I am ordered around vs. someone asking me to do something. Not saying that's what's happening here, but maybe just a difference in how things are worded might help to appeal to MIL's strong affection for her dog and the sense of being needed.
You could try asking in that way, and then if not, I agree with just letting it drop for now. Besides, if she is going back to the doctor this week coming up, they will be able to check her out again, as far as listening to her, taking vitals, etc.
Really, the core issue is that it would be less nerve-racking and head-aching for everyone else if she would do it tidily in a facility.
You can see both points of view, when you look at it.
How old's the dog?!
That's what would qualify her for hospice care. It doesn't mean she's dying soon, it just means that she and her loved ones understand that what she has isn't "beatable" or "curable" and they need to stop nagging her about eating, exercising and the like.
It really is about taking control of her own destiny, which in the end, is what she wants.
I hate when I disagree with CM, but in this situation, with the Keystone Cops as her biological children, I'd be grateful if a daughter in law brought up hospice.
You can approach things and make your comments a self fulfilling prophesy, if you use the same approach you portray with the same attitude, of course she will refuse, who wants to say yes, I'll be a huge burden on everyone I love. That is what your attitude says and that's in writing.
Your mad because you are still propping this up. Oh by the way, SIL is calling on the team be calling your husband and daughters, they agreed to be part of the team, your husband said he would have to do more. So stop being mad that she is calling on people that agreed to help. You want to control who gets called for what. Get over it, you have made it clear, not your mom.
If they don't want to do what they agreed, they should tell SIL and MIL that, instead of begrudgingly doing or not doing, or climbing your frame with it.
The Lord loves a cheerful giver and that is not what anyone is doing with this 88 year, frail, feable human being. I wouldn't trust any of you to help me find a facility either.
Barb, your advise is spot on, as usual. I love that you speak the truth, no matter how hard it is to hear. Thank you.
But she IS accepting of the church ladies, right? Would you have predicted that 6 months ago?
She called to find out if your daughter (she was told YD was part of her team, right?) was able to tend to her sick dog. Isn't that an improvement over SIL bugging YOU do take care of this stuff?
So, I really only have my own experiences to draw from here. As my mom got older, she needed more. More help, more time, more support doing various things.
It's sort of the way things go. You get older, you need more help. You either plan well, or badly, or you don't plan at all. Part of planning, as I see it these days, is how your maintain relationships with your children and their spouses when they need your help. If you are a "present" grandparent, you might think that, down the road, your kids, their spouses and grandchildren might remember that fondly and be more willing to step up.
Your loved ones step up, or don't, based on 1. family values 2. expertise
3. availability 4. proximity 5. willingness.
The difference in my situation and yours, Dorker, is that my mom trusted us. She trusted all three of her children and my brothers' wives implicitly, that we had her best interests at heart.
She said "no" to AL and IL, but we took her to visit (we've always been good at ignoring what she thought she wanted and once she got settled, she loved it.
Your collective problem Dorker, is that none of you is willing to say "no, mom, I think there is a better way for you to age. Here, let's go for visit to AL".
Do SIL and DH REALLY think that mom is happier at home, huffing and puffing to let the dog out, to get dressed, to shower without assistance? To rely on others for groceries and deliveries? To be confused and vulnerable all the time? Really? Do they REALLY think that?
"Mom, you mentioned hospice services; here's what it's all about. Let's discuss your prognosis and the possibility of better care with hospice with your doctor next week; what would you think about that?".
Dorker, you talk all the time about what a good grandma MIL was; do your kids feel that way? Do you value the time she gave them? Do you hope that your daughter with the twins, whom you've helped, will remember that help when you are frail?
I for one think that MIL has more capacity for change than any of you are willing to admit. And Dorker, I understand your burnout and your caution at volunteering anything at all.
But I'd give the hospice conversation a shot. The worse that happens is that MIL thinks you're trying to kill her and bans you from her presence. If that happened, things would tumble down really quickly.
Let her as questions, and then you propose a home visit and consultation with them. Palliative Care is not EOL Care, they would put together a team of Caregivers, to help her with her goals to improve her QOL as she so desires, and you wouldn't nessasarily need to be involved after the initial set up of said services. Yes, it would all be new to her, she Would have to answer the door to the Nurse, Dr, PT and home health aides, but it would give her something to look forward to several days per week, helpful visitors, which would improve her outlook on life, and who knows, perhaps with these "strangers" input, she may just become more acceptable to additional support, such as adult day care, home PT, and all things that Would improve her life and well-being.
I definitely think it's worth a shot, and I mean Real Ongoing dialogue, to help her to see that her life Can Improve, but that she is in charge of her own destiny, she absolutely Can improve her health to the point of walking her dog, getting back to making small meals, easier breathing and increased energy, and better health and sleeping too.
No doubt that she could probably improve with additional home care, possibly O2 at home, daily Nebulizer treatments, and encouragement wearing Depends, as many older folks wear. Its Amazing how an "outsider's" perspective might just be the Lifeline she needs, to better health and better personal choices, that will only improve her life and outlook.
That's my 2 cents, but again, it isn't a one time conversation, old people are set in their ways, and have to be cajoled into helping themselves, especially when they have been stuck in a rut, and are used to having others do everything for them. They Do need to be pushed, to do The Right Thing, and to realize that their Selfishness is Affecting Everyone's lives, not just their own, and that they should be held accountable for it! A little Guilt (hee-hee), goes a long way to them seeing the error in their ways, how they've let themselves go, and how it is affecting everyone around them, and how their choices would not only improve their own lives, but will then improve Everyone's lives, and therefore make her much more pleasurable to be around!
Her improving her own health and circumstances, would be a game changer for Everyone, it's not too late! Continued encouragement is what she needs, and I know it's draining to go on and on, but who knows, maybe she is ready for a change, with the right encouragement from you and especially from the strangers, who can make it sound a Real Possibility for Improvement in her life! Don't give up! Perhaps make it an INTERVENTION!!!
Remember, I had my own FIL in my home for 13 years after his wife passe away, Extremely Narcissistic and Set in his Ways, we mde a Lot of Mistakes (Total Burnout!), but we did, Finally, after countless efforts and conversations, got him into ASSISTED LIVING, where he thrived for a short time (11 weeks), until his Lung Cancer diagnosis (somethings you just Cannot Predict), and then returned to our home for Hospice Care until he passed away after 9 long weeks. Still, while short-lived, I would have persued AL again, as it gave him that independence that he himself didn't know he could achieve!
I know that its hard!!!! Happy Mother's Day Dorker!
Her son was sitting in the recliner in the den, she and I at the kitchen table talking. Her son didn't react .. at all. She only responded as follows:
"I just am not gonna run back and forth to doctors all the time, you know .. you get to where they'd have you in there, all the time, and what for .....???.....what are they gonna do, ya know, .. at my age, this stage of my life .. they aren't gonna be able to perform any miracles and hand me some pill that makes it all better .. I'm just not gonna do it".
Again I asked, .. "So is Hospice anything you want to consider".
Answer: "Well ya know, I have that doc appt this next week, on Tuesday and I called and cancelled it .. I just am not gonna do that .. ya know.. it turns out that cardiologist wants to see me once a month .. and I'm not going to do that, what are they gonna do that would fix anything wrong with me .. they can't .. and running back and forth for doc visits and procedures and tests, and so forth, not something I'm going to do".
At that point I turned the questioning, and asked, "I thought that was an appt you were going to have L help you with" (church lady, one of them). Her answer, .. "I'm just not going, I'm not gonna do it". I responded "I think the purpose there is that they monitor your CHF and so forth and whether there is any need to adjust meds .. that's why I had mentioned to you the other day about Palliative Care .. maybe if it's too much for you to have to get out and go, you could get it set up that they come to you, for tests, etc .. is that something you want to look into".
Again, same song different dance. More dialogue on the same thing, she's not gonna run back and forth and spend her days going to docs all the time.
No real answer given. No her son didn't chime in, and maybe push any dialogue any further, or cease it .. no response at all from him, in the recliner in the den.
At that subject changed, to how good this was (our meal). We'd picked up some steamed shrimp for her and some items to go with it, from one of her favorite restaurants and brought it there, (her not wanting to go out anywhere, unable to do it). She thoroughly enjoyed the meal brought to her, and her son marveled at all she ate .. and she did eat a lot.
Conversation at that point was turning to what SIL is doing for marking her Mother's Day what MIL's sister is doing with her day .. and her son that is seriously/chronically ill with Crohns, .. and her brother in law in TN and what's going on there.
No more dialogue at that point about Palliative/Hospice or any other issue.
I will ask again .. fwiw.
As to what the church ladies and she discuss. Ostensibly it is to be confidential .. so as to develop a rapport of trust.
I do happen to know that one of the ladies has begun a dialogue that would see her trying to open discussion on consideration of MIL going to her daughter's in IL to spend some time. I happen to know that is something she is pushing .. in conversation with MIL, only because she voluntarily shared that with me. I do not pry as to what's discussed, it's none of my business, and I'd like it to remain that way .. so as to built that rapport of trust ..
Get off MIL's back about nutrition/medication/PT, so forth.
I am going on the assumption, as we all do .. that she wants to "live" her life and enjoy that life, to the extent that can be done. She says .. at least out of one side of her mouth that she isn't going to be one of those old folks that goes and parks in a chair and covers her lap with a blanket and rocks away the rest of her life .. that's not what she's about, she gives that lip service, very much so. She also talks, .. A LOT .. about wanting to get stronger, do the things she wants to do .. such as taking her little dog for a walk .. going to the grocery on her own .. that kinda thing.
If we're all gonna go on the assumption those are her goals .. then it's only natural that the things one would need to attend to, to achieve that, are going to be part of any discussion. PT .. nutrition/meds .. etc etc.
She doesn't say "I just want you all to leave me alone . now let me be .. I want to die here .. I'm done with this life .. I don't wanna be here .. can ya help me get to that end??!?!? No, well just leave me alone".
That's not what she says. She "says" quite the opposite.
So that's why there is dialogue on "PT, meds, etc.".
As I said earlier, it always circles back .. when it's suggested .. it always circles back to "I just can't do that", all while she just said, the sentence before it .. that she wants to get stronger and throw the walker away and the cane too. It goes in circles.
Maybe such is life with elderly. I dunno.
Of course, I realize, we all do, CHF is not curable .. we all are on that page. DH's dad had CHF ...... we are familiar with it .. the why's/how's. It's not curable, we understand that .. and I think MIL does also. But it is treatable. One can definitely treat the symptoms of that disease. For sure.
Is she going to be able to work to a degree that she can indeed throw the walker and her cane into the trash can and become the latest marathon runner at the age of 88. Not likely at all.
Can she at least .. if her goal .. as stated by her .. is to get stronger .. can she get there? Yes, she can. Part of that is to consistently take her medication(s). For whatever her reasons, she aint gonna do it .. not consistently. Part of that, is to partake of PT .. at least to the degree she's able to. She aint gonna do it.
But yet .. she says the things .. "I just wanna get stronger ...".
Am I, and others to ignore that and be dismissive .. "oh MIL .. you are just so sad a case here .. you just need to grasp ahold of the fact you are dying .. and quit fighting it .. just go sit quietly in that rocking chair there and grab that lab blanket and go rock away the rest of you life .. that's all you're good for at this point".
No, of course not. So you try to have conversation with her, where she is .. that's all you can do!
But it does go round and round and round .. and no ... it doesn't prove fruitful at all. She doesn't suddenly agree, "ya know .. I do know that's what I have got to push myself to do .. you know SIL had gotten all the details of how I might get a ride from that local transit authority bus to get there, I think I'll dig all that out and maybe get myself signed up and begin that journey".
Nope, not at all, doesn't happen that way. Not at all!
So what do you do? You keep bringing up .. the Palliative Care thing .. the Hospice thing ..the visiting physicians thing, until she either bites the hook on one or the other .. or she tells me to shut the hades up.
You try to introduce the concept to her how important her meds are (been there/done that, in physicians offices countless times thru the years) .. you try to continue to pound the drum on PT and how that might help if she'd partake. That's all you can do.
Doesn't mean that I go there and there is this patience pill that I take before I arrive there, and all things are rosy and sweet and lovely. Not hardly.
I limit my exposure to it all, .. yes .. very much so. Have to.
Yes, that means there are loose ends not attended to .. very much so. The bible that I read tells me that I am to help others with their burdens .. but I am to also carry my own load and that God expects that of me. If I can't carry my own load for shouldering someone else's burden, I am allowed to back away from that burden .. to a degree that I can now carry my own load.
I sure hope Silentscreaming will follow some of the threads here on this board .. my heart broke reading her story. That she has now reached a resignation to it all, as she serves in slavery daily .. essentially . to her situation while the others .. are living their lives.
I had to set boundaries. I was going to end up in just the same predicament that Silentscreaming is in. I could see it coming. Her daughter, MIL's .. retired and offering to take her mom in to her home to help her ... and MIL refusing to do so .. at one time, also refusing to allow any 3rd party engagement by others to assist in it all.
I'm not sorry that I have set boundaries and limit .. in fact, I'm glad that I have. Does it make me filled with joy to know there are things MIL struggles with getting seen to? No, of course not. That makes me very sad and frustrated at times. But I also realize I cannot do it all .. and so .. there will be things that aren't seen to.
Today a great example. There to enjoy Mother's Day lunch brought to her, and she mentioned her doggie .. in need of professional grooming. I didn't offer to take that on .. nor did I offer who she might deploy to that mission. Her son is sitting in the very next room, in the recliner. Did he step up, "hey ma .. why don't you schedule that for "x" date/time and I'll come get poochy and have that attended to". Nope, he didn't.
So there is a loose end that will remain unanswered to, ... until she deems whatever appropriate to address it. More than likely, I suspect it will land on YD's radar .. if not tomorrow then the next day .. as a directive either from SIL having heard it .. or from MIL.
Again .. YD may balk, and to me .. that she doesn't wanna be the "go to" as to pup need. But she will be told that's not my fish to fry .. she can take that up with her g'ma or with her dad .. not mine to address.
Loose end that remains unanswered to.
The issue wherein she was supposedly (so I'd been told) going to approach one of the church ladies as to this week's doc appt (I took her last week for her doc appt., for knee injections). Apparently this coming week was to have been a cardio appt and she was to have summoned one of the church lady folks for transport there. But . sounds like that has been cancelled at MIL's initiative ..
Loose end, not seen to.
Does that make me uncaring and unchristian like .. that I didn't step to, to both of the above and take it on .. and run with it.
I guess some might deem that the to be the case. I don't.
I do what I can .. and the rest of it will have to be as it is ..
Dorker tells MIL that a palliative program could send medical care to her home. MIL responds that she’s not going to spend her days running back and forth to doctors.
OhhhKayyy.
Hard to say how much is cognition issues, and how much is MIL’s well-honed selective listening.
Regardless, this disconnect is why so many conversations with MIL stall or circle.
This disconnect is also why it’s so difficult for anyone to help MIL effectively.
It sounds as though there has been some sort of change in MIL's cognition, frankly.
In your place, I think I'd ring up one of her doctors and ask for advice. See if they will send a visiting nurse to check on her. Or call a palliative care organization.
Or just call SIL and tell her that her mom is refusing to go to doctors appointments.
It sounds to me like Dorker is doing the right thing, doing what she can do and letting go of what she can't. You definitely have to have boundaries for your own sanity, and I don't feel that makes a person un-Christian.
I think if it were me, the next time MIL mentions wanting to get stronger, wishing she can do this or that, I'd say, "You're right, there's no cure, but you can improve. However, that's gonna have to be your decision, nobody can make it for you. We love you, but only you can decide if that's what you really want." Put it back on her, and then just let it drop.