I've posted before about in-law care-giving. Aged mother in law, lives in same town.
We are at the tail end of a visit from sister in law from several states away. Sister in law has been here for 3 weeks caring for her mother. A much welcome respite.
It had been discussed, prior to her arrival here on the scene, she would be talking it over with her mother, to try and get her mom to come up to her home, for a stay of maybe a few months.
This, in my opinion, is absolutely essential, as I am expecting twin grand-children, due in about 1 month (if they don't come sooner, as is the case a lot of times with multiples pregnancies). The expectant mother also lives locally here, and has a 4 year old daughter. I will be on that front, helping .. as much as is needed. And not on the front with mother in law and care-giving, and have made that as obvious and apparent as I know how to make it. It would be great if mother in law would agree to go to her daughter's home (several states away) for a period of a few months .. and allow me the latitude to put my energies where I want them to be, on my daughter who will have had a c-section .. and my grand-daughter (4 years old) and new twin babies.
Nothing doing. Mother in law has dug in her heels, and will not hear of it, going to stay with her daughter for any period of time.
What are her reasons?
In mother in law's defense ... her daughter ... I don't even know how to describe it. I will say that when her daughter comes here to visit, she all but breathes for her mother and if she could find a way to do that, she'd do that too. She is the most nervous nelly, never sit down - ever ... worry wart, do everything, all the time .. person that I've ever encountered.
A great example, as I was taking her to the airport yesterday for her departure, . I reached into the fridge to grab myself a bottled water and shut the fridge and turned to walk away, as I've done for all of my 50 plus years living on this earth .. and she said to me, "Oh make sure that fridge shut". WTH???? Like I don't know how to shut a fridge? That's just a small, very small slice of what she is ... how she is.
She is so very hyper-vigilant, seeing to every minute details down to it's finest most minuscule point, fine tooth comb, questioning every point along the way, "should we do thus and so, but maybe if we do thus and so, then such and such will happen, maybe we should do it thus and so .. but then so and so might happen, maybe we shouldn't do thus and so, but do "x" "y" and "z" instead, but if we don't do it that way then ..........", on and on and on and on it goes. And usually in hyper warp speed, as to every single friggin thing.
If her mother moans .. "what's wrong mother?, why did you moan, are you alright?".
Mother: "Yes, I'm fine, I was just sighing out loud".
Sister: "Why did you sigh? Are you hurting, are you sure you're alright, why are you sighing what's the matter?"
Mother: "For God's sake __________________, I was just sighing, .. calm down, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, .. because if something is wrong you need to tell me".
Mother: "Everything is fine, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, we did a lot yesterday, did we do too much, maybe we shouldn't of gone to two doctors in one day .. was that too much for you, are you too tired now, maybe we need to move those other doctor appointments so we won't have two in one day, is that too much for you, for one day .. is that why you were sighing .. what's wrong, are you sure you're alright".
Hopefully that kinda gives a little bit of a snapshot of what goes on when sister is in the ring directing things.
So in mother in law's defense.. I do get it, why she wouldn't be chomping at the bit to go to her daughter's home.
BUT ....
The only experience she has with her daughter, in the last years as mother in law has aged and been unable to go anywhere much, has been the daughter coming here, periodically, for periods of about 3 weeks at a stretch. When her daughter comes here, she moves heaven and earth for her mother and then some, and doesn't sit down, doesn't stop .. the WHOLE ENTIRE TIME.
Is there a possibility maybe (as I said to mother in law, when she expressed that isn't happening - talking to me - her going to her daughters .. ever) .. could it be possible that maybe if you would go to where she lives .. she'd be more busy managing her own life in that setting than your's and she would get out of your backside .. and not be as hyper-drive-vigilant as you experience in her, when she's here, could that be possible.
The daughter is retired, lives several states away. Does come here, generally, every few months .. and stays for a period of about 3 weeks at a stretch. I wish I could make a list of everything the daughter did when here this last time, but it would take up the whole character allotment:
She'll answer me ... I'm sure it's no big secret.
But anyway, do we care how she got her hands on the label? Does it matter? - Or do you suspect she actually doesn't have it, except in theory?
I don't know that the Psychiatric DSM has a defined dx of "lonely old folks that need pet companions".
So, I am curious, to see how that was done. I do know it's good for a year. I remember, the vet's office called me and left a message, when SIL was last here in town (they called me in error, not sure why, unless it's a mere fact that I used to be the *go to* and so they had my info on file there) .. they had his papers ready to be picked up .. to substantiate he is up to date on shots, etc.
He is a well behaved dog for the most part ... unless, like other dogs .. other pets .. are in the vicinity .. then he gets territorial and barks and lunges at said pet .. that kinda thing. Not unlike other pets.
I can envision someone else that has brought an ESA on board .. it's gonna be a barkfest for the rest of the passengers on that plane for the duration of the flight (oh JOY). Not out of the realm of possibility there could be another passenger or three that also have an "ESA" on the plane at the same time. One can hope that won't be the case though.
Her dog's only real exposure to other pets has been that which he sees outside taking a walk with it's owner, from the comfort of the living room window .. and he goes nuts. Or, .. he has had exposure when our daughters have come that way with their own dogs .. and he gets very territorial and barks a lot. Usually he ends up playing with them .. in the end .... but if they get too close to his owner .. (MIL) .. he lets em know .. back off.
Should be interesting. I am curious now, how they got that done. Hadn't really given a whole lot of thought other than the presumption it was done from the respect she's a lonely feeble elderly woman that uses this dog as her sole purpose to continue breathing/living.
Start figuring out who is going to make the 2-day drive to Illinois. Which will be a 5-day drive with an 88-y.o. (who has something wrong with every major body system) and her spoiled dog.
I think SIL should be the first choice and the last choice. She needs to stop with the hot air and Make It Happen.
When SIL & golden son & virtual-stranger grandchildren make their upcoming Tour De Florida, pull SIL aside and ask her when, exactly, she is going to buy herself a one-way plane ticket to FL — and rent a car to drive herself and Big Mama back to Illinois.
Maybe ask the vet for a tranquilizer tp keep doggy calm for the trip.
Somewhere I think I heard that the number of pets in the cabin was limited.
Flying ( I do quite a bit) with a yapping *ESA* dog is awful. They will make MIL get off the plane if poochy is not behaving. Likely his vet would prescribe something for both motion sickness and something to calm him. (It sounds like I want everyone and everything involved to be tranquilized :) )
And PLEASE do have a talk with SIL when she gets there. None of this "well, I have to run here and there and do this and such, we'll work it out later"..this talk has to happen and things need to be planned NOW or you're in for a repeat of last year. SIL is aware of YOUR personal evacuation plans, I hope. So she cannot just kinda ignore it all and assume you and DH will step up, as you did last year.
I know this is DH's place, but he is not going to do one thing to help and you know it. As much as you want to pull back and stay--once in a while you're going to have to step up and shout.
Good Luck---sounds like you may have really bad weather for the golden child's visit--Hurricanes already hitting FL!
I think the same rules apply. I have seen plenty of real service dogs and they are well behaved and really, ignore other people and animals and do their job, which may run from anxiety relief to seizure "pre-warning". They potty in certain areas and never bark for no reason. You wouldn't even know they'd been on the plane.
"Pets" can bark, bite, pee and poop wherever and cause a real ruckus--hence, the new rules tightening people's ability to take poochy poo everywhere. That dog so much as snaps at somebody or another dog and MIL will be asked to leave the plane--or not even be allowed to board.
Yes, psych docs are the ones who need to sign off on an animal being a true "ESA"--MIL's dog isn't really one. It will be interesting to see if she can pass him off as one.
This is all contingent upon the very faint and vague possibility that she'd deign to go to IL for a few months. I wouldn't put money on that happening. Yet, I hope it does, somehow.
There is a lot of abuse of the whole ESA system, by people who just don't want to pay for their pets and want them with them. It's easy to send away for bogus certification and get a vest for the animal.
So you can bet there will be other ESA animals on board that flight.
Let the barkfest begin!
(Put me on MILdoesn'teverleaveFL team.)
Dorker when you have to evacuate just inform the authorities that MIL is alone in her home and can't evacuate.
SIL actually does not want her Mom living with her, she has her hands full with hubby. The zombie appearance may just be for outsiders. At home when they are alone he may be completely helpless and passive aggressive.
SIL presents the appearance of being the great helper and organizer so that she can't be acused of not helping Mom. The frequent trips to Florida may be her way to escape from home for a while.
Wonder why son and family did not arrange to fly to IL to spend time with his parents?
SIL's husband .... I wish I could accurately describe him. He really is pretty drugged up to deal with his bipolar. It renders him pretty ... oh I dunno ..... about like MIL describes him, like a zombie. But ... he does interact .. if spoken to, he speaks back. He doesn't generally initiate much in the way of conversation. MIL likes to wax and wane on and on about the fact that SIL does EVERYTHING in that household (and she does, but I would argue, that's her choice). That he doesn't take a breath that's too long unless she has commanded he do so. The fact that he doesn't do a thing there, unless directed by SIL to do so. He isn't someone that really initiates much of anything, .. such as, "ya know I think I'll go outside today and wash the car". Nope. If she asks him to do so, .. he'll do it. Or ... he will walk right by a sink full of dishes .. that he created .. and not wash them. If she asks, he will do it. Same with a garbage can that's overflowing .. he'll walk right by it .. but if she asks .. he'll do it.
Yet he is completely capable to sit and pay bills, and does that in their household, .. he is completely capable to decipher tax stuff and does that for their household, he is completely capable of balancing the checkbook, and does that for their household. Many things he does do ... he's not a complete invalid.
And, as I've pointed out to MIL countless times as she waxes and wanes on and on that he is so completely helpless (she resents it .. and what it's done to her daughter's life, that her daughter would be essentially remanded to a life of looking after what is essentially a child .. in that she has to command the ship there, in every way). I have pointed out to MIL countless times, "yet she comes here .. a lot .. and him not with her, and somehow he manages to take his meds ... I guess the house doesn't burn down, she's never had to leave in a hurry because the house has fallen down around him .. somehow he manages .. when she's here ... so he's not as helpless as it might look .. I think what you see .. in your daughter doing every demonstrative thing .. commanding he take 2 of this pill and 1 of these, and take this one later, and don't eat two oranges .. you're diabetic remember, and you shouldn't eat that bread, eat this bread .. what you're seeing is your daughter .. and the way SHE acts .. more than you're seeing someone so completely helpless that your daughter has a life of being his helper solely".
She will acknowledge, .. MIL will, when it's circled back, by me, .. and pointed out .. that I'm right. BUT......
That same broken record plays time and time again. Her waxing on and on .. about how helpless he is, or the term she's often employing "useless".
A great example of something that goes on that drives MIL over the edge. SIL will go outside, for instance, when here in town .. maybe she's gone out there to weed the flower bed and re-mulch or whatever. He's with her, .. he's standing there ... (remember he doesn't ever have a lot to say ... ever .. just not real talkative) .. he goes out there with SIL .. and he stands there, both hands in back pockets .. just standing there .. just there .. just .. physically there .......not because he's helping, not because he's outside keeping her company by talking to her, .. he's just there. This kinda thing makes MIL NUTZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Drives her crazy. She says she can't even look outside.
SIL may ask him, "hey go get that trash can and drag it over here for me, and put these weeds in it ..", he'll do it. Does he think to do that, if not told. No. He stands there, .. just .. stands there. If SIL tells him, "hey go into the garage and get that tray of flowers we bought, .. so I can get them planted". He'll dutifully do as he was instructed. But does he think to go get it for her? No. Does he think to sit down .. and begin the work of doing just as she's doing, pulling out weeds and raking up old mulch and leaves? No. He just stands there.
This all makes MIL absolutely furious and drives her crazy.
I've asked her before, "what is it that makes you crazy about it, .. he's not standing watching you and waiting for direction from you, .. why does it bother you, what is it you want him doing".
(I thought when I've asked her that, I'd hear something akin to ... her wanting him hopping to also .. go find something else that I need done around here, and do it .. ).
That's not what I hear when I ask that question. Here's what I hear: "I don't know .. you know when I was married J and I did .. we just did ... if dishes needed doing, whoever was able to do it, did it .. him or me .. we didn't direct one another .. if bills needed paying .. one of us did it .. if groceries needed bought, one of us did it, if yard work was needed, one of us did it .. we didn't STAND AROUND waiting for one another to direct the other".
I have said to her (this has gone on more than once, these conversations between she and I, about how it all makes her so nuts .. being in and around it), ,.. I have said to her, "but this is your daughter's marriage, .. she's happy ... she and he do enjoy one another, . in spite of what you see as her directing the whole show .. they do have things in common .. they do go and do things .. and they have a good time .. isn't that what matters in the end, we all want for our kids that they be happy, she is .. isn't that what matters?".
Again, .. she will admit that I'm right, but the same broken record plays over and over and over. Her on the train of thought/talk, that he is useless .. helpless and what it has done to her daughter's life. Sometimes I don't engage .. I get tired of re-routing that whole dialogue time and time again.
My perception .. and in fact, most of the rest of us .. is that she is happy .. yes she has a lot to look after him .. he is diabetic, bipolar .. and he is so drugged that he is kinda like a zombie a lot .. but .. she is happy.
MIL seems to get on the train of thought, .. quite often .. opposite the above. As I said, sometimes I will redirect it all, engage with her, and redirect it .. but sometimes I choose not to go there with MIL .. and just let it go .. it will only re-route back to her impression of it all, .. it always has, in the end.
Should SIL not be looked at as someone who should have to then add on to what her shoulders already carry in caring for her husband, by adding her mother into that mix?
I maintain that the daughter's life .. and directing her husband and his needs, .. it's who she is. I can't even imagine her in an equal partnership marriage where the husband is his own person doing as he pleases, be that going out to golf for the day or piddling in the garage with whatever tinkering makes him happy .. I can't even imagine SIL in that kinda relationship. She is .. the ultimate .. hop on that hamster wheel and manage .. manage the household, the cars, .. the medical care of both she and he .. and him and his welfare. It's who she is.
So .. should she not then be even entertaining any notion of bringing her mom there to live under her roof, she has enough to do just in managing her own state of affairs. I don't think so.
I mean, she, as it is presently .. calls her mom 3 and 4 x's daily to try to manage from afar ... her life isn't such that she doesn't even have the time/energy to look in this direction as to what goes on. Quite the opposite.
That's up to her, .. if she doesn't want to bring her mom there to look after, that's understandable also. But she does seem to put "voice" (at least) to that wish. So do it then. If you aren't gonna do it, then do the legwork to figure out what best suitable as to more structure and a safer setting for your mom, is my argument to it all.
As to the dog .. I don't know if they have sedatives they have obtained to keep him calm on the plane trip. (if they even go, and I'm kinda in the category .. she will never leave FL). The dog ... as I said, .. he does do alright .. as long as there aren't other animals around .. (and who knows if there will be on that flight .. could very well be other animals). If they were lucky and got on a flight that had no other animals on board, or better yet anywhere near his proximity .. he'd likely sit in someone's lap and you'd not hear a peep out of him the entire flight.
I guess, we'll see ...
I do intend to ask her, I'm just curious. How did they get this ESA credential. I don't think anyone has visited a psychiatric doc, if they did I was unaware of it. And I didn't think one could get that label without a psychiatric dx. So .. I'm just curious now .. how'd they do that.
In a sense I do feel bad for MIL slightly, to have to do the whole uproot for a while and go elsewhere. Mobility is so hard for her.
But then I keep reminding myself, .. all she'll have to do is direct her daughter as to what needs packing (she wouldn't be able to do it .. too much back and forthing to retrieve this item of clothing and that item and these shoes and those shoes, and these pj's and those pj's). Her daughter will be doing that for her. Then on the morning they leave .. all she'll have to do is get in the car ... that's it. Just get from her house .. into the car. Someone else will load suitcases .. someone else will leash doggie and hold onto him .. someone else will drive to the airport. Once she's there, she will merely have to get into a wheelchair to be wheeled to where she needs to be, someone else will deal with a skycap and the luggage and holding onto the leashed dog .. and checking in and such. That's all she'll have to do. That's it. Then time to board the plane .. she'll be wheeled right up to the gate in her wheelchair and will have to merely stand up and make her way to her seat. That's it. Same thing on the other end, when she gets there.
So she'll be out of her home, her element .. for whatever duration .. it's not that bad .. it's not like she's being sent into a dungeon for a period of a few months. It's not that bad.
So there is a sense in me, .. a small one, that it's sad she will have to make this effort and uproot . but then I remember .. it's not gonna be that bad .. it's not something she can't do.
She hasn't flown there for about 7 years, someone asked, and that's the answer.
Bipolar disease is not something to take lightly. SIL and BIL probably rode quite a rollercoaster during BIL’s undiagnosed/untreated years.
And once meds were introduced, there was probably months or years of trial and error before the correct combo/dose was established.
Those walking-on-eggshells years are probably not something that SIL remembers fondly. SIL undoubtedly had to do more than her share during BIL’s highs — like she does now — but with the backdrop of BIL’s drama. Which, for bipolars, typically involves reckless spending, dangerous behavior and odd fixations.
I’m sure BIL’s lows were draining, too. And probably left him unable to fully engage in his home life. Leaving SIL in the do-it-all role.
Was MIL supportive in any way during those years? Or was she the same heckler she is today?
In the here and now, BIL’s diseases (bipolar and diabetes) are well managed. SIL is perhaps living a life that you or I could not embrace, but she sounds perfectly happy in her marriage. Even with all their challenges, SIL and BIL do things together and have shared interests.
And MIL has nothing good to say. Incredible.
I'm going to project that the nephew and family from out of the country are coming to FL specifically to satisfy SIL - and that may not happen. If it does, it will be a guilt-laden trip - never mind Mickey Mouse, you have to go see Great Grandma! While nephew is visiting, do bring up MIL's evacuation during hurricane season **in front of him.** You might get the traction you need if **he** lays a guilt trip on his Mama. Oh, triangulation smangulation - Let's get the gal up to IL where she'll be safe from the storms.
Where SIL and her hubby are these days is probably worlds apart and improved from where they've been as they weathered this, years ago, to get the correct dx and correct meds. As far as I'm concerned, SIL is to be commended that she has honored her marriage vows and didn't throw in the towel. "In sickness and in health", and all that stuff. She meant it.
It gets tiresome .. the fact it comes up like a broken record with MIL. As I said, sometimes I choose not to engage and just change the subject. Doesn't do a lot of good to go there, .. it doesn't change the overall broad scheme of how she thinks. MIL's assessment of it all, is very much a minority view. The rest of us don't agree with that opinion.
And Yes, Surprise .. I think there's "something wrong with SIL", not necessarily anyone else. Someone that feels it necessary to call their ailing mom (yet a mom that can manage, because she has a "team") every 3 to 4 hours daily .. to check on her ..???.....someone that would like to be able to direct those in her path .. on any number of points they can direct themselves on, without her assistance.
On another note .. it's been interesting .. anytime the topic comes up .. MIL has made it a point to tell the following several times, to anyone that will listen .. she's proud to announce things are not that way here. SIL's son is married to a gal of Asian descent. In their culture .. elderly folks are housed with family .. not living alone, on their own.
MIL has told me the story several times, of when SIL's daughter in law found it astounding that MIL lives so far away from the daughter, and (gasp/horrors) on her own, no one there living with her. This daughter in law to SIL finds that astonishing .. not something that would be the custom where she's from ...
MIL likes to tell this story and how she touted to her grandson's wife .. "that's not how it's done here .. we don't necessarily have to do that .. we live on our own here and manage just fine".
Not that their thoughts will weigh in any direction on any the whole saga .. they won't. But don't think I haven't thought about looking for an "in", with any conversation that might go on in my presence, that while their culture does thus and so .. and some insist on this side of the pond that it doesn't have to be that way .. some on this side of the pond aren't looking at reality, .. as I look askance at the elderly person in the room.
I plan on it.
It irritates me the way MIL talks about SIL's husband, almost making fun of him. Does she do it in front of SIL?
Don't you wonder what SIL's H really thinks about the idea of MIL coming to live in IL?
MIL seems to consider SonIL to be a bit of a millstone round SIL's neck.
Well, SIL is a rescuer. It wouldn't be the first time I've noticed a bit of rescuee rivalry going on - one person resenting how much their helper helps other people. My MIL could get very sharp-tongued about how much time and trouble her daughter's MIL used to claim. Now that my MIL is the sole survivor of that generation, of course, it's a different story.
If MIL moves to IL otherwise than strapped to a gurney I will eat my hat.
Rescue rivalry...interesting. I know that my mother got very huffy when I told her what my 8-day stay with her when she was nearly helpless would have cost if she'd had to pay. She said that my H's sisters would have stayed with my MIL if she'd needed it, right? I said I had no idea what they would have done, and that they both work fulltime. Of course the truth of the matter is that my MIL is NOT difficult like my mother is, and my SILs certainly dote on her.
And about the "Asian way" of taking care of elders. My mother's doctor (woman) is from Nepal and went to medical school in Nepal. I remember when she told me that my mother "needs socialization." Maybe I was wrong, but the implication was that *I* needed to facilitate that. Then again, I was with my mother at that appointment (the last time I was allowed back to the examining room), so there were probably assumptions made that I was far more involved with this frail elderly woman than I actually am.
Doctors often tell the caregivers what THEY have to do, I know. So maybe it wasn't related to the doctor's Nepalese background; any doctor would have done it. Yes, the more I think about it, the more that's probably the case.
It's only interesting from the respect MIL tells the story .. to anyone within earshot of how her g'daughter in law (Asian descent) finds that just abhorrent .. is just astounded, that's not the way they do it in her culture. MIL wears it as a badge of honor, proudly announcing that she lives alone .. and "manages" .. and that people here in our culture do that.
Of course I'm sitting over there listening to this, gets told over and over ... as if I haven't heard it before .. and my thoughts are, "........and sometimes those people who wear that badge of honor .. to make those choices .. shouldn't be making that choice".
I did say to MIL the last time she told that story (being snarky) .. "so ...I guess we're to presume then that when SIL gets old and feeble, or her husband maybe .. whoever remains when the other is gone .. they have set up in place to take them in to care for, ... SIL aware of this, that her future may include being cared for abroad?".
Seemed to take MIL back a step or two .. to pontificate....
It's hard to figure it out, if one even cares to bother with such. Does MIL consider the husband of her daughter to be a millstone .. and a rescue competition ..
I really don't know the answer to that, to be honest. On the one hand, on the surface, it does look as though maybe were it not for the "needy" husband of SIL ... then SIL could be at MIL's beckon call and at her service, .. so why does she have this millstone around her neck .. this ball and chain .....
It does look that way on the surface. But I don't really think that's the case .. underlying it all.
I know that it drives her absolutely bonkers watching SIL run that hamster wheel in care and concern and directing her husband's every breath .. and it also drives MIL to distraction to watch her daughter "attempt" to do the same with her!
Very telling that the other day when I was visiting her and she complained that her back is bothering her. Her telling me, .. along the lines of the fact she'd mentioned this in one of the numerous check in phone calls daily, from here daughter. Her daughter now all up in arms, "Get dorker .. we need to have you to the doctor, .. can you call dorker and see if she can get you seen .. you really need to get to the doc and have that looked at". Her premise for this line of dialogue was the fact that her daughter, the task-master .. always on that hamster wheel running it, full tilt.
That she'd scoffed at her daughter, and said no .. I don't need to go to the doctor, .. I'm fine, no I'm not calling dorker .. I'll be fine.
She then follows it with, "now do you see the difference, I mention to you that my back is bothering me, and you didn't even bat an eye at it .... you aren't grabbing the phone and trying to see when we can get me seen .. you didn't get all up in arms about it".
I answered, "that's because I'm' going on the assumption you have enough going on upstairs that you know when/if you need to be seen .. I don't think that I need to be the one to think for you".
Above, point being ... she doesn't like it when SIL (or so it seems, and it truly does seem that way) ... tries to run her life and tell her when to breathe and how often and how deep and so forth ... she doesn't enjoy it .. seemingly. So, to assume that on the surface, .. this husband of SIL's that requires so much of SIL's time/energy is somehow competition as to rescue .. would be .. I dunno .. it's not what it seems. I think she truly does kinda wish her daughter would take a handful of chill pill and regularly.
Her lamenting in that same visit .. that her daughter had been all up in arms over her having sat to review and price out a switch in h/o insurance. That she wanted her mother to get ahold of Dorker .. have Dorker come over and go over it with you, have her help you. And MIL refusing that also, .. insisting to her daughter that she can handle this, let her handle it.
SIL then telling me later, that she can only hope her mom made some wise choices as to switching insurance companies/policy .. and that she hasn't bought into something that isn't gonna be what she needs in the event of an issue.
That's what I mean.
That's why it all so infuriates me. What does it look like to you SIL, that you seem to think her team .. is there to help .. this supposed team that .. as I figured would be the case, is pretty absent .. and she will be there to "manage", what does that look like to you?
So, she's now there deciphering through her paperwork to switch insurance companies .. why the *all up in arms over it* .. is she fine to manage .......... ??....... then let her ... why get all up in arms over it. Let her manage, that's what you choose in letting her make the decisions she makes, to remain in her home.
Which is it? Either she really is incapable of managing, thus the *all up in arms* ... and if so, then you have some decisions and some demonstrative action to be taking. if she "is" fine to manage, then why are you trying to direct from afar.
I don't know that it's, MIL looking at it, that if the husband weren't such an albatross around SIL's neck .. then SIL would be at her beckon call. I really don't think that's it.
I think it's what she says .. what she describes .. it really is, for her .... a matter that watching her daughter at work/in action .. with her husband and directing his every move (and he the zombie he kinda is, allowing it) .. and that her daughter would do the same to her, if she'd allow it ......... is more than she can deal with.
What does the husband really think about having MIL under his roof? He is the kindest, most patient .. caring person that has been talked about to his face, .. than anyone I've ever known. He seems to have a realization that she's old and old people say things they shouldn't .. and so .. it's all taken with a grain of salt. And yes, she's said things in front of him .. and SIL will correct her, when she does so .. right on the spot ... "Mother, he can hear you, you can't say things like that about him". Her generally responding, "I'm 88 years old, I can say whatever I want". SIL then responding, "No, I don't care if you're 100 years old, you can't say things that hurt other people's feelings".
I've asked SIL if he has reservation about it. Her answer is that he knows she needs help/support .. and that they can't move here to FL .. and so the answer is to bring her there, if she'll come ... that he does worry that it will be too much for SIL .. that she will work herself to death .. and that he does worry about MIL's mouth .. and she says hurtful things .. but that for the most part, he has a keen realization that she's old and says things she shouldn't say .. and so is to be overlooked.
He is kind, ... to a fault ...
Interesting she doesn't say things about me, that I'm aware of. Other than the fact my cupboards look like I'm preparing for the Apocalypse. And that when I cook, I cook enough to feed a neighborhood (an exaggeration). But those are the only things I've heard her say about me.
I'm interested that SIL doesn't respond "oi, you, that's my husband you're talking about. Cut it out."
Well. Some people don't like fuss, full stop. All very fine and stoical. Just a bit of a problem when *some* sort of response to a problem is actually necessary - !
If my mom had made remarks about my husband, in and around him, or behind his back for that matter, I'd not be at the ready to help her, you can believe that to be true.
SIL not so.
I described early on in this whole thing when things really got kinda heated up. The plan had been, .. way back when .. that when SIL retires .. she and husband would spend months here, and they'd take MIL with them, for months there.
That came to pass, SIL and her hubby here .. for what was to be testing the waters .. of about a six week stay.
Oy Vey!
But it happened that BIL was manic at this specific juncture, and here, in MIL's home .. for their stint of a stay here.
I wasn't there, .. I don't know what life is to be around him in a manic state. I've been around him .. when he's said to be manic .. and my observation is that he is more talkative than would normally be the case, more jovial than one would normally find him .. someone generally speaking, pretty stoic.
But I'm only "visiting", I'm not living under the same roof with him, in that state of being. Quite the different experience I can imagine.
It didn't go well. Him manic at that time.
To hear MIL talk of it, ... back at that time, .. she found him intolerable. First and foremost (you have SIL that manages his every breath) .. but him .. when he's manic, he eats everything not nailed down .. and all the wrong things (he's diabetic remember) and massive portions of whatever it is, he never gets full. MIL talking of him eating a whole bag of oranges .. inside of about two days. SIL had "allowed" that he buy a candy bar when they were at the store .. but said candy bar was to be divided into 3's .. split 3 ways. When time came to split the candy bar, .. turns out he'd eaten the whole thing ... (not good for a diabetic to do such) but not only that, now the whole candy bar is gone .. nobody gets any of it. That he talks all the time (not like him at all) ... just all of it, to hear MIL tell it (back at that time anyway) it was more than she can be around.
At the culmination of that visit .. she'd made it clear to both SIL and her husband, that he was no longer welcome to return there ... (I guess the presumption being, .. one can never tell if a visit by him will also be accompanied by a manic state .. and if so .. it's more than she can weather, to be around it) .. she'd already made it known to both SIL and to her husband .. that he is no longer welcome there.
Particularly cruel .. he'd been standing at the back door, the morning they were to leave . for their flight. Standing at the back door, gazing out at the b'yard and she'd said to him, "that's right buddy .. you take a good look around, you won't see this place again".
Cruel.
And the fact that SIL even had anything further to do with helping her mom, at all, behind that cruel treatment .. is .. I dunno .. more than she'd of found in me, had she treated me that way, or my own mother, to have treated my husband that way. My mom would've been told it's a package deal, he's my husband and I'm going to always choose him, . hands-down .. over anyone else, .. and so you can't tolerate him .. and his issues .. you've just sealed your own fate, as to my help.
SIL didn't take that approach. She is kind/patient .. to a fault, as is her husband.
SIL agrees he is a lot to put up with when he's manic .. says of it all, "hell I don't like it either, but I don't have a choice, .. we just have to get through it, and get his meds tweaked and get him back aligned right .. and we do .. but it's hell .. til we get there, he doesn't sleep good, wakes me up at night, to talk about stuff that doesn't even make good sense .. he eats all the wrong things ... and talks non stop .. hell it's no picnic for me either, but he can't help it ... and I know that .. he hates it .. he knows .. once he's no longer manic .. he has a realization around the fact that he's been outta kilter and he hates it, he wishes he could change it .. but he can't ... we just get through it, that's all we can do".
So you ask her, .. "well what about your mom and her intolerance of it all, ..". She says, "well that is a problem and I've talked to her about it, that he can't help it, .. and that it's part of his brain chemistry that misfires .. and it's nothing that we can change .. but that she can't treat him that way, I won't allow it".
SIL says the last few times they've been in each other's proximity that MIL has not made cruel remarks and been unkind to him. He also hasn't been manic at those times either.
Somehow it all got walked back .. as things were left that time she'd told him to take a good look around, he'd not be there again ..
He's obviously been back a time or three or four .. and so that got walked back.
But no one in it all, ever said, what I think I'd say given that circumstance, "alright that's how you feel, you're on your own, he's my husband and I love him .. and you're on your own then".
If she walked a DAY in someone with BP disorder's shoes she'd have a lot more sympathy. It's awful. I have an anxiety disorder and I HATE "being" that disorder--I didn't cause it, I treat it and I'm not putting ANYBODY out by being super-anxious--yet I have certainly had horribly rude things said to me when the anxiety rears its head. And I cannot always control it!
I can understand why SIL doesn't stick up for her hubby. My own wouldn't come to my defense if somebody set me on fire. His mother has been horrible to me and he has never said a word to her about "cutting that out, this is my wife".
People can compartmentalize very easy and have expectations as to how their "people" should act. I would NEVER let any one bad mouth my hubby...but he doesn't feel the same about me--I can fight my own battles.
Your poor BIL. He sounds like a sweetheart and he probably is just functioning as best he can. He doesn't kowtow to MIL as she may like and that could be part of her dislike of him.
I know that in my world, the only thing I've known of DH sticking up for me, was when his mom made some noise .. about her not understanding where has Dorker gone, she doesn't come around anymore, she doesn't take me to doctors ......
That kinda noise ongoing. DH said that he told her, .. at least he spoke to that part (in part anyway) .. "Ma .. she used to take you to docs, but you don't listen to and heed what they say, .. she found it a waste of her time and energy".
THANK YOU ......... (that's at least part of what has gone on). At least he stuck up for me in that small slice of it all ... and didn't then in turn come in this direction with a "my poor poor mom, Dorker you're just mean . you need to step up and keep wasting your time".
I try to stay out of the fray with MIL and how she feels about the whole situation with her daughter's husband. I do engage on occasion and try to redirect it all, and for that moment, .. at least that moment, .. MIL then does see and acknowledge that I'm right, .. somehow he gets left in IL when SIL comes here, on occasion and .. whaddya know .. he manages .. the house doesn't burn down . he doesn't end up hospitalized in a diabetic comma from having eaten the wrong things .. he does manage to take his meds, and get dressed and function daily ... and SIL not there to see to it all ....
She does, .. at least when I take the time to engage on it all, .. she does "see" and acknowledge ..
But then it always circles back .. to the same ole same ole, broken record. I don't generally engage any longer pointless.
Yes, he is a very very kind person .. very patient .. very understanding .. as is SIL usually .. to a fault ....
I have a hard time being patient with it, but do have a realization that I haven't lived under the same roof with it all. What I see, .. in his presence ... when I'm around, is only in a visiting setting .. I don't live it. I have a hard time being patient with MIL's stance on it all.
As SIL has put it before, "why is it such a problem for her, hell I'm the one that has to manage it all, I don't ask her to do it ... why is it a problem for her ... she's not the one that tells him what meds to take, or what shirt to wear .. that's me .. I don't ask her to oversee it .....".
There ya have it. Thus, I have little patience for it. One thing if SIL was dumping it all on her .. and some incorrect assumption that MIL cares to take the reigns. That isn't the case.
Let’s take roll call: A son who officially checked out. A son who unofficially checked out. And a daughter who is a human tetherball.
Truth is, MIL wouldn’t have sh*t if it weren’t for the “kids’” loyal spouses. You, Dorker, no explanation needed. And BIL might come across as a distraction, but he is a major force in the spirit of tolerance.
Bipolar or not, darn near any other son-in-law would have taken a firm (and possibly vocal) stand against MIL’s raging disrespect. And sure as heck would not have consented to take the old hag into his home.
It’s a shame that MIL never learned how to count her blessings. Or if she does, she has a funny way of showing it.
People can be very odd in their reactions to other people's conditions. Not two weeks ago I heard someone I really would have thought would know better say he'd discouraged his son from doing some political canvassing with a person *on the grounds* that this person had once had a total mental breakdown and was, I regretfully quote, "a nutter."
All of those involved support a party I happen not to, so I could just say to myself "I'm not a bit surprised to hear it ho ho ho..." But joking aside actually what bothered me is that in 2018, an educated, experienced and (normally) kind man is holding mental illness against a person as though it were a character flaw. Really? Still? *Former* mental illness, yet. How long is it supposed to bar one from office, then?
I know she has also been known to comment (and maybe she doesn't realize the tone/modulation of her voice carries) .. she might see some old decrepit soul in a restaurant for instance .. someone maybe worse off than she (but not by far, she's pretty bad off) .. a person that looks all hunched over, maybe osteo ... can't even stand up straight, not moving about at all well .. .and she might would say out loud (and with a volume that she has to be shsh'd ... so as to not be heard) "oh dear GOD if I ever get that bad off, for God's sake don't take me out in public".
Or she might see, . in the grocery store .. someone morbidly obese .. the kind that we'd all kinda do a double-take but would shut our pie holes .... and she would say things like "Well I hope she's buying stuff for salads, God knows she doesn't need to be in the ice cream aisle".
Or I know one time in particular we had her out at a restaurant. The table behind us a really really REALLY old couple made their way in .. very old, older than she .. by far .. barely making it. Sat themselves down at the table behind us. This was a curious scene to her. She was pondering out loud, how old they must be .. how long had they been married .. that kind thing. We were having to shsh her ...
For all we know these two are mere acquaintances and not married at all, and it's none of our business, nor is it any of our business how old each is.
She asked her son (DH) to turn around and ask them how old they are ... of course DH wouldn't do it, refused and told his mom to mind her own business .. it's none of our business how old they are, leave them alone.
I think it's a loss of filtering that a lot of the elderly suffer from. Not anything I'm gonna be able to correct.
I know another time, I had her out for a lunch that we'd stopped along the way to partake in. We'd finished our lunch and we were ambling our way out, ever so slowly when she stopped to gander at what was on someone else's plate that looked oh so good to her, .. and was going to ask them what that was .. interrupting their meal, .. when I garnered her and got her moving and stopped that before it got off the ground.
Leave them be, not everyone wants to make conversation with you, .. they are sitting there talking among themselves doing just fine .. you wanna know what's on that plate, ask the restaurant staff as we leave, and order it the next time.
I know another time I had her at a doc office, and it was a time when the elections were in hot news of the day. Two older gentleman sitting in the waiting area pontificating on the different candidates and their stances on varying issues. I was always taught politics and religion .. issues that don't need to be openly discussed. She chimed into said conversation without invite. Here we were, sitting across the room (yes their conversation was loud enough we could hear them) .. but they hadn't invited any input ... for all we knew, these two guys are co-workers, neighbors, brothers .. I dunno .. maybe they can have a civil discourse about political candidates .. I dunno. But they didn't invite add'l input and I thought I'd die, when she chimed in, uninvited and with oppositional POV that was met with blank stares of "who asked ya, ya old bat", .. and they resumed their conversation absent any acknowledgement that she'd spoken. They don't pick up on social queue, etc.
Loss of filter.
We've probably all got stories of where the elderly in our lives need to have their pie holes sewed shut.
I have lived over 50 years of my life with a manic depressive. he can be the absolute sweetest most helpful person but at other times he's hell on wheels especially when you throw in what I see as passive agressive behavior. Big complaints if he kicks something of mine out of place and on his return causes me of leaving it there for him to trip over. Walks by the cat's dish and tells me she is out of water!!!!!!!!!! What have you forgotten where the tap is?
I love him dearly and know he feels the same way. He was almost desperate when he thought I was going to die a couple of years ago. He hardly left the hospital for days on end. However once home i was expected to resume my duties.
Dorker I think SIL has a very heavy cross to bear, and deals with it the only way she knows how.
Many older people still see mental illness as a character fault and think people should pull themselves up by their boot straps. i now my BIL in the UK has many of the same problems as DH which I am sure were inherited from their father. Hubby has sought treatment but BIL would not be seen dead in a psychiatrist office.
Doesn't compute.
The world is different today than it was in their day. We don't comment on "Fat" people .. we shut our mouths. We don't comment on the old lady that's so hunched over she can't even stand up straight.
We don't comment on the white gal that is out to dinner, holding hands and obviously enamored of the black fella with her there at the dinner table.
We don't make "comments" ..........
MIL .. comes from a generation where I guess one could "talk" of these things, if under their breath. This day and age, .. one doesn't do so .......
I guess they don't change gears at this age.
Call themselves, informed/educated/enlightened, but .. not really no .. they aren't .. some of them.