I've posted before about in-law care-giving. Aged mother in law, lives in same town.
We are at the tail end of a visit from sister in law from several states away. Sister in law has been here for 3 weeks caring for her mother. A much welcome respite.
It had been discussed, prior to her arrival here on the scene, she would be talking it over with her mother, to try and get her mom to come up to her home, for a stay of maybe a few months.
This, in my opinion, is absolutely essential, as I am expecting twin grand-children, due in about 1 month (if they don't come sooner, as is the case a lot of times with multiples pregnancies). The expectant mother also lives locally here, and has a 4 year old daughter. I will be on that front, helping .. as much as is needed. And not on the front with mother in law and care-giving, and have made that as obvious and apparent as I know how to make it. It would be great if mother in law would agree to go to her daughter's home (several states away) for a period of a few months .. and allow me the latitude to put my energies where I want them to be, on my daughter who will have had a c-section .. and my grand-daughter (4 years old) and new twin babies.
Nothing doing. Mother in law has dug in her heels, and will not hear of it, going to stay with her daughter for any period of time.
What are her reasons?
In mother in law's defense ... her daughter ... I don't even know how to describe it. I will say that when her daughter comes here to visit, she all but breathes for her mother and if she could find a way to do that, she'd do that too. She is the most nervous nelly, never sit down - ever ... worry wart, do everything, all the time .. person that I've ever encountered.
A great example, as I was taking her to the airport yesterday for her departure, . I reached into the fridge to grab myself a bottled water and shut the fridge and turned to walk away, as I've done for all of my 50 plus years living on this earth .. and she said to me, "Oh make sure that fridge shut". WTH???? Like I don't know how to shut a fridge? That's just a small, very small slice of what she is ... how she is.
She is so very hyper-vigilant, seeing to every minute details down to it's finest most minuscule point, fine tooth comb, questioning every point along the way, "should we do thus and so, but maybe if we do thus and so, then such and such will happen, maybe we should do it thus and so .. but then so and so might happen, maybe we shouldn't do thus and so, but do "x" "y" and "z" instead, but if we don't do it that way then ..........", on and on and on and on it goes. And usually in hyper warp speed, as to every single friggin thing.
If her mother moans .. "what's wrong mother?, why did you moan, are you alright?".
Mother: "Yes, I'm fine, I was just sighing out loud".
Sister: "Why did you sigh? Are you hurting, are you sure you're alright, why are you sighing what's the matter?"
Mother: "For God's sake __________________, I was just sighing, .. calm down, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, .. because if something is wrong you need to tell me".
Mother: "Everything is fine, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, we did a lot yesterday, did we do too much, maybe we shouldn't of gone to two doctors in one day .. was that too much for you, are you too tired now, maybe we need to move those other doctor appointments so we won't have two in one day, is that too much for you, for one day .. is that why you were sighing .. what's wrong, are you sure you're alright".
Hopefully that kinda gives a little bit of a snapshot of what goes on when sister is in the ring directing things.
So in mother in law's defense.. I do get it, why she wouldn't be chomping at the bit to go to her daughter's home.
BUT ....
The only experience she has with her daughter, in the last years as mother in law has aged and been unable to go anywhere much, has been the daughter coming here, periodically, for periods of about 3 weeks at a stretch. When her daughter comes here, she moves heaven and earth for her mother and then some, and doesn't sit down, doesn't stop .. the WHOLE ENTIRE TIME.
Is there a possibility maybe (as I said to mother in law, when she expressed that isn't happening - talking to me - her going to her daughters .. ever) .. could it be possible that maybe if you would go to where she lives .. she'd be more busy managing her own life in that setting than your's and she would get out of your backside .. and not be as hyper-drive-vigilant as you experience in her, when she's here, could that be possible.
The daughter is retired, lives several states away. Does come here, generally, every few months .. and stays for a period of about 3 weeks at a stretch. I wish I could make a list of everything the daughter did when here this last time, but it would take up the whole character allotment:
What if she refuses .. do you guys realize where this all goes . she isn't declared incompetent .. she can go home and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it .. do you have the stomach to let her . and then waltz back off to IL . .and her with no support structure and what that result is gonna be .. can you stomach that.
SIL doesn't think she'd do so. That she kinda is . her default is family . well her family is united .. in this path forward . and so there is no "family" to take care of her, to cart her home . and get this all in order .. and so .. she won't .. she won't refuse it all.
She's never utilized a cab .. or lift service, ever . .remember the fight I had on my hands when I suggested .. back when .. .that I was no longer running the damn roads for all her varied doc appts., there are transport services, taxi, ,Uber, .. gogograndparent, etc .. and she wouldn't hear of that as any option .. "I don't want strangers carting me around".
She truly .. thru and thru .. doesn't have the mental capacity at this point .. it's my firm belief .. to process and sequence, .. that's way higher functionality than she exhibits these days .. "I'll show them . .they all wanted me to use a taxi to get to docs .. and I refused .. I'll show them . that same taxi they so wanted me to use .. I'll sure use it, yes I will .. now let me see .. where's a phone book .. let me find a phone book somewhere .. let's see, now let me look up .. taxi .. let's see "T" .. .. and find her way in the yellow pages (because she does't have a smartphone to be able to ask Suri or Google to do it) .. and then call said service, . pack her things . and wait at the front door . that's all way beyond what she's capable of . she can't string that whole process together. . Her default is family .. and her family is stating clearly .. .and with consistency . this is going to be the path this thing takes.
What I mean is: whatever happens, whatever outcomes ensue, these things are happening to MIL. Not to her children and certainly not to you.
If it's a "good" next step, it won't solve everything. It won't stop her getting sicker, being unhappy, or eventually indeed dying.
If it's a "bad" next step, it still won't be much worse for anyone except MIL. It won't be DH stuck in a dog forsaken (that's a typo but I like it!) h3llhole. It won't be you lying in your own soiled sheets.
Perspective, proportion. You are all doing your best to find the best achievable option for an elderly lady with chronic heart disease and failing faculties; but the best can't be that fabulous no matter how hard you all try; and the worst can't be that much worse than what is entirely inevitable and comes to us all. Temper your emotional investment in this according to how much it helps anyone.
Just curious. What did the attorney have to say about the Reverse Mortgage?
I am assuming if he suggests the home be sold some of MILs money ($20,000) will need to be used to pay taxes, home owners insurance, maintenance, repairs while the home is on the market to be sold and any funds remaining or made from sale of home is spent down on MILs care as self pay.
Rehab discharge is now 8 days away...at what point does the purgatory place get chosen? If MIL does end up being qualified for a SNF for long-term placement, purgatory might end up being permanent.
We are leaving that out . if she asks . she will be told, "We're all taking care of it".
She no longer pays her bills, sorts thru any banking statements, etc .. the chances that MIL will ask for, . or actually .. .process .. "gee, how are they paying for all this . .let me dig out a bank statement here, ask SIL to produce it'.
Pretty nil.
And yes, we talked about how it feels so deceptive to have spent "HER" money .. money that she would absolutely have a heart attack if she knew that had been done .. it feels so very deceptive to have done that. We talked about that.
But ... were we to go to her, .. "Now MIL we're going to write a check out of your account so and so . and that will pay for X, Y and Z, and here are the reasons we need X, Y and Z".
For there to be any assumption that she would
A. Refuse to be any part of that .. no h377 no you won't . you won't use MY MONEY to put me away .. H377 no.
or more importantly
B. MIl now, .. "ok now explain "X" to me .. and why we need that (and her have any clear abililty to process the reason/basis) . and now explain "Y" to me .. and why do we need that (and her any ability to understand/process) .. and now explain "Z" to me . why do we need that .. (and her understand/process/sequence) .. .is way way above her abilities at this point.
Don't forget folks.. I've been on the train (i've dropped it for obvious reason) she needs a cog assessment .. she isn't able to functional mentally on all cylinders .. but it was ignored . and not thought to be needed (all in denial .. don't forget that . I was the lone voice over here, . she doesn't manage . her brain is no longer working like it should) the lone voice, forever .. until mere weeks ago . .when that tide turned.
So no .. she doesn't know that we used "her" money to pay for this and likely won't ever really.
She is aware of the thumb nail sketch of .. this is going Medicaid .. as she knows she has no resources to pay for otherwise .. her ability to process and understand the inner workings of it all, pretty nil .. her ability to refuse . and make a "plan" for herself .. pretty nil.
The rest of her money will be sheltered .. still to be determined. There is some shared account, that one of us .. can be owner of . and dispense appropriately as to her needs . but that has some tax implications to whoever is the owner of same . one is required to "pay themselves" for servicing her needs .. and it can be a small amount . but nonetheless . there are tax implications . so it's not anything we really want to do, sorting thru it all . really. But .. the up side of doing that, is the immediacy of addressing any need .. and being able to write a check .. out of those funds ....
The other option being bandied about is a trust account . and that is overseen by some organization . .and they would dispense funds as to any need .. but there wouldn't be any immediacy as to fund availability to address need . .going that route. There are fees/costs associated with setting up a "Trust" account as to the remainder of her dollars . there are costs associated .. and so ..
We're looking at it all, . set up that shared account, and whoever is the owner of it, ... likely it'd be DH . won't work to have someone that lives out of town . to be the owner of it . as that owner has to demonstrate they are "paying" themselves for services rendered .. and account for what services, and on some kinda routine basis . and so to try to fudge things with a "Oh I only come in town every few months . .not there on site all the time, but yea, I'm gonna pay myself to be doing thus and so for "x" of hours . every few months when I come into town .. ", .. that doesn't
That doesn't really work .. it looks shady . it would be frowned upon were it ever looked at ..
One needs to be someone who is local . and routinely paying themselves .. say 4 hours a week or whatever . as to what's done for her, .. as to services rendered .. and routinely .. not every 3 months.
So it may go the way of "Trust" .. but we're looking at it.
The RM was looked at .. and it's assumed (probably correctly) there is no equity left in the home, over and above what is mortgaged . and so .. trying to sell the home to realize any dollars . probably not going to be viable.
Talked some about the language of her specific RM .. and he will look at that . but generally speaking .. as he described it . one is given 12 months . once the occupant no longer resides there . and .. yes one is still responsible for taxes/insurance ..
Her taxes were paid in Nov . and so won't be due again until Nov . her h/o ins is paid quarterly .. some $200 .. plus .. and so that will have to be continued to be paid . as long as the house isn't yet turned over .. and so .. there will be no funds . her funds will be going to her care . so we'll have to either pay it out of the "trust" or we can pay it . if we want.
And the process of them taking back the home .. that will .. as he describes it . .one can .. let the mtg company know, .. "we want the house" . and buy their interest in it .. (we don't) .. one can sign over deed in lieu . in which case . one is prepared to turn over the keys . happens pretty fast .. once that occurs .. so you need to have it emptied . or one can let them go the route of "Foreclosure" . in which case . .it takes .. as little as 3 to 6 months or he's seen it take as long as two years . .. says we'll revisit that later.
Gotcha. I’ve seen it explained on this forum that more often than not it is advisable to let the bank take the home, which is what would happen anyway should MIL pass away tomorrow unless someone in the family wants to buy it.
3.5 hours of info to absorb at an attorneys pace. That is a lot. I hope DH is trying to and continues to understand how this is going to work if he is going to be the local in charge. Even if you are the paper shuffler and he just signs the checks he really needs to have a thorough understanding of the process on a monthly basis should he have to handle the shell game himself at any given time.
I think I'm there .. having been on this page far longer than her son or daughter were able to realize . .it's been obvious to me for a long long time . she isn't managing . it was only within the last week or so . that DH and his sister came to this conclusion.
I think I'm there ..
Yes a sad realization she may lay in a bed that is soiled .. and press that nurse button and maybe they don't come right away .. tragic . yes .. but not a lot I can do about it .. sad .. that yes .. she may be surrounded by slumpers which further then brings her down ... but not a lot I can do about it .. so many scenarios.
Yes I think I am able to (but she's not my mom too) ... compartmentalize.
I don't know that SIL/DH are there .. at all.
Will they get there? I don't know.
I think it's helping that process that both are finding it somewhat grueling to go visit her .. and .. annoying and troublesome in all the woe with me . that goes on. That is .. to both of them .. they are finding it .. at different levels .. troubling .. SIL more on the page than is her brother .. of ... "I can't fix this". She's not where I am on down the road ahead of them on that curve . but she's closer to me on that road than is DH.
I do very much think it's going to be a matter they're going to have to learn that skill . both of them .. "compartmentalizing" that this is her life .. and her choices in her life .. have landed her in this spot .. and so .. absent either of their ability (and both do realize . on different levels each respectively . as to their ability to step to that need) they can't do it .. DH still filled with regret and wishful flying monkeys .. SIL .. very firmly marching down the road in the very real realization she can't do it.
In that, .. they are both .. at least somewhat aware . the options are limited.
She doesn't have a big fat bank account (neither do any of us) that we can bring in round the clock care to her beloved home .. and have her stay there. Both of them realize the realization of that. DH more on the flying monkeys page than is SIL at this stage ..
SIL also .. like myself .. of the very realization that even if $'s fell from the sky to set that up . round the clock care in her home .. she'd dismiss them . has a history of same. And managing it all, to try to replace workers dismissed by her, would be a nightmare.
DH not there .. as to the above .. I think if "wishes" the flying monkeys and dollars that would fall from the sky would all resolve this . no real recognition on his part, .. that would bring about a whole other set of troubles .. workers that don't show up . no coverage . her dismissing workers .. her complaints .. him no real recognition for that fact .. and the mere fact there are no flying monkeys and no dollars falling from the sky. SIL more cognizant of above . as am I.
What I could do at this point .. is get in my car, and drive to north GA where EB lives (estranged brother) and punch him right in the face, and break his eye sockets and his nose in one fell swoop . that I could do, right now ..
WHY the sudden anger towards him? Haven't we wondered at times if he wasn't the smartest one of the sibs, having stepped away from MIL and her manipulation and narcissism?
But what if “rote” is to manipulate?
I've read here on AC a number of times that individuals with dementia can no longer manipulate. That certainly wasn’t my experience. Not at all.
My mother was a master manipulator. Mom attempted to manipulate me, my brother, her private pay caregiver and eventually the staff at the nursing home up until she lost the power to string together a sentence that made any sense.
The main difference in my mothers manipulation pre and during her dementia- was in its complexity and believability. The attempt was either blatantly obvious or it was fantastically far-fetched. My mother remained oblivious to these flaws, although I have to wonder if she ever asked herself “Gee, why isn’t that dummy falling for it”. Probably not.
So, either my mother - in her dementia- was exceptional in retaining this “skill” or persons with dementia who were Master Manipulators most or all of their lives - are able to maintain a certain “muscle memory” in this area.
At least - that’s my experience.
Plus, I do think sil is failing in what I call The Golden Rule of Dementia.
And, that is:
There is no reasoning with Dementia
I can’t say as I can really fault sil in failing to recognize this rule at this point in her journey- it was absolutely one of the last lessons I learned in mine.
Unfortunately.
I find it so interesting.
I've never been convinced MIL is narcissistic or manipulative even. But I could be very wrong. I once was, back in 1972. That's a joke btw.
My experience as part of her life for decades now, Always pretty much a kind/giving and caring person.
Maybe I don't know narcissism and manipulation when I'm tripping all over it.
I guess I would envision a narcissist as someone so conniving and shallow it'd be obvious they only care about their wants (definitely her these days) not at all how I'd of defined her in all the years I've known her.
Manipulation .. I guess I see that more as a function of *gee I know what I'll do .. if I do thus... it'll cause so and so to do "x".
As in ... maybe I want a newer car .. and I've plead my case to no avail .. now I'll purposely go wreck my car so I get a new one now".
I do think MIL is utilizing .. in this case ... her *go-to* move that always worked ... not even in a purposeful way but more rote.
It always worked marvelously to talk of how she'd never be happy in "one of those places", that "she'd manage .. she and her little dog ", that she couldn't bear to part from her things/her memories.
It worked, like a charm ... til ... it's not working this time.
She doesn't have anymore tricks to pull out of her bag of tricks .. it's all she knew .. and it worked splendidly.
She doesn't now possess the capacity at sequencing of thought to pull the rug out from any so called plan and make it viable and "manage".
She's kind of at this point .. as she has termed it more than once "I'm just a victim here, this is all out of my control". Usually followed by "this isn't me .. this isn't what I'm about. I just want to get back to my old self ... I wasn't ever supposed to get old, I'm not even supposed to be here anymore"
I no longer engage, justify, sort thru it all as I once did do.
The above generally gets a response from me "it's all going to work out, always does, we love you, it'll all be ok"
Easy for me to say not standing at the cliff fixing to fall over into the land of slumpers.
Point there, there's nothing left to discuss "you weren't gunna get old? If you live long enough .. you're gunna get old". Used to .. no longer go there. It's pointless. "This isn't you? This isn't what you're about? What do you think is you and what you're about?"
Used to go there, give her a platform. I don't anymore. No point.
She's not gunna see it .. this IS YOU NOW ... there IS NO getting back to the old you, YOU ARE OLD ...YES YOU GOT OLD"
She simply can't connect the dots
This is manipulation thru guilt. She isn't saying she necessarily wants SIL to stay to care for her. She resents that SIL's life is not going to change and SIL is not making it possible for MIL's life to be as it once was.
Yet when SIL called her on it and held her feet to the fire her mom's response "well no I certainly don't expect that you give up your life to take care of me"
Then why'd ya say that???
Chaps DH's back side raw .. mine too.
What about the last 15/16 years you've had your unpaid servants at your every whim GIVES YOU ANY IDEA YOU WILL BE FORGOTTEN?!?!?!?!?!?!
Seriously
So is she manipulating? Or is she (mentally compromised that she is) just acting out as a child would?
Yesterday at atty office .. going over an old old Will (done before their dad passed away in 2003) it was designated there that EB was to get the car.
That'll all be changed, updated Will of where she wishes her things to go.
Atty asking if she owns a car, does she drive.
SIL: She owns a 2003 Toyota Camry...hasn't driven now in probably 1 1/2 years.
Atty: does she intend to drive? What does she want as to her auto, do you know?"
SIL: Well if you ask her she'll tell you she's working to get stronger and back to her old self, so she can drive again! I guess a good thing in the sense she's motivated to work towards getting better ...but not very realistic on her part at all.
Yup.
You are correct. My relative was at a rehab facility. There was a "slumper" sitting at the dining table with her one day when I visited. This woman had had a stroke and was very disabled. Her hands were contorted, her head was tilted to one side, her face was all drawn up, wheelchair bound, etc. She had a special curved spork type thing in her hand and was feeding herself very, very slowly, spilling a LOT, but getting some in her mouth as well.
I asked a passing CNA if that lady needed my help and the stroke lady heard me and frowned and said something unintelligble. The CNA bent over and said "No mam. Mrs. X has been working hard here and likes to feed herself, don't you Mrs. X?" CNA went on to tell me Mrs. X mind is fine, but her speech and motor functions were damaged from the stroke. She encouraged us to talk to her.
Illness and dementia reduced my dear, once vital parents to the slumper category at the very end of their lives. Fortunately there were many kind-hearted staff and other residents in their AL and MC who made the effort to engage with them until the end. MIL will hopefully adapt to living in the midst of people with a variety of disabilities.
Its simply, for me and my intent, a condensed way of describing folks who have been so hobbled by old age and dementia, no longer capable of sitting upright and no longer possess any ability to engage and interact at all.
I do realize to some degree the individual described above is still a person. It's not meant as any slant.
And yes we all know and I've seen even a few in my tours thru some of the sites
.. there are still folks fully functional and able to engage tho they may for various reasons be confined to a wheelchair.
The latter is not what I'm referring to when I use the word "slumper".
Any one of us could end up a "slumper" if we live long enough. And in truth it breaks my heart seeing these so called slumpers. As I'm very aware ... just because I happened thru whatever site I saw slumper .. at a time of day that perhaps dutiful and loving wife/husband/son/daughter wasn't there visiting.
That person may very well mean the world to some loved ones that visit when they can.
I believe the initial use of the word here was in description of a certain portion of facility population that Dorker’s MIL would find not palatable. She would have a big problem with facility residents as a whole but persons in wheelchairs in slumped positions she would find not to her taste.
My BIL has completely stepped out of the picture as far as his mother (my MIL) is concerned. Literally, he plans to never see he again nor come to any services held when she dies.
Yet, he will inherit 1/3 of her estate, which could be upwards of a quarter million dollars a piece, easily.
More than kind of rankles the souls of the two sibs who have stuck around and been there for MIL. No, inheritance is not payment for something, but it is a way to "reward" those who meant something to you in life, if you so choose.
In my mother's will, I am actually being "billed" for something that cost $1500. I THINK it's my braces, as the amount is so very clear and that number seems to ring in my memory. Braces have been off for 47 years and I am grateful my parents allowed me to have straight teeth. But to bill me for it, posthumously....hurtful.
And not legal, either.
Brother has had 15+ stress free years. In my thinking, he did the right thing.
Here on this thread - here in Dorkerville as I’ve come to call it - we very much have our own vernacular. Us, who have been here the longest. As well, many newbies have been able to catch-up and tune in - adapting to the native language spoken here. Not that - that is a requirement. Not at all. But it does help in getting specific thoughts and points across as they relate to previous thoughts, incidents and posts. “Circling the campground”, “lunching with missionaries”, “I’ll manage” and everyone’s favorite “chitapalooza”.
So, “slumpers” came into being. I imagine more than a few here winced at that one - but - they knew immediately as to the image that was attempting to be communicated - AS SEEN THROUGH MILs EYES.
In the the nearly two years I have participated in this thread I have never know anyone here to be mean, hurtful or derogatory. Not unless it is done by a Drive-By poster who hasn’t taken the time and effort to get to know the heart of this thread and the warm and caring folks who participate here.
Just my opinion - of course.
After her stroke, my mom was mostly what you might call a "slumper". Someone who looked like she didn't know where she was or what she was about. She had vascular dementia that progressed over 4.5 years in the NH and watching her go down was painful beyond belief.
BEFORE her stroke, when she "merely" had mild cognitive impairment, she was quite disdainful of folks who couldn't get it together. She had a lifelong commitment, it seemed to being "not as bad off as the others". Probably had something to do with growing up dirt poor and losing her dad at age 2. But they weren't in an orphanage!
I recall so distinctly after about a year at her IL, someone she had know rather well when I was a child moved in. Mrs. S had clearly had a stroke, moved very slowly with her walker and spoke in a whisper. My mom took great umbrage at this. "Why does she bend over her walker like that? Why doesn't she speak up? I can't hear what she's saying!".
I tried to explain what was going on with her former acquaintance, but my mom seemed convinced that if Mrs. S would just put a bit of effort out there, she'd be fine.
I think this is a function of old age and creepy brain atrophy. And a mighty avoidance of the thought that we might look like that next week.
BarbBrooklyn, I know what you mean. My mother, now 92 with quite the widow's hump, has seemed to actually resent people in wheelchairs, especially in IL. Sister had to point out that such people are "allowed" to live there.
The attitude that but for a bit of effort one might stand tall seems very common!