I've posted before about in-law care-giving. Aged mother in law, lives in same town.
We are at the tail end of a visit from sister in law from several states away. Sister in law has been here for 3 weeks caring for her mother. A much welcome respite.
It had been discussed, prior to her arrival here on the scene, she would be talking it over with her mother, to try and get her mom to come up to her home, for a stay of maybe a few months.
This, in my opinion, is absolutely essential, as I am expecting twin grand-children, due in about 1 month (if they don't come sooner, as is the case a lot of times with multiples pregnancies). The expectant mother also lives locally here, and has a 4 year old daughter. I will be on that front, helping .. as much as is needed. And not on the front with mother in law and care-giving, and have made that as obvious and apparent as I know how to make it. It would be great if mother in law would agree to go to her daughter's home (several states away) for a period of a few months .. and allow me the latitude to put my energies where I want them to be, on my daughter who will have had a c-section .. and my grand-daughter (4 years old) and new twin babies.
Nothing doing. Mother in law has dug in her heels, and will not hear of it, going to stay with her daughter for any period of time.
What are her reasons?
In mother in law's defense ... her daughter ... I don't even know how to describe it. I will say that when her daughter comes here to visit, she all but breathes for her mother and if she could find a way to do that, she'd do that too. She is the most nervous nelly, never sit down - ever ... worry wart, do everything, all the time .. person that I've ever encountered.
A great example, as I was taking her to the airport yesterday for her departure, . I reached into the fridge to grab myself a bottled water and shut the fridge and turned to walk away, as I've done for all of my 50 plus years living on this earth .. and she said to me, "Oh make sure that fridge shut". WTH???? Like I don't know how to shut a fridge? That's just a small, very small slice of what she is ... how she is.
She is so very hyper-vigilant, seeing to every minute details down to it's finest most minuscule point, fine tooth comb, questioning every point along the way, "should we do thus and so, but maybe if we do thus and so, then such and such will happen, maybe we should do it thus and so .. but then so and so might happen, maybe we shouldn't do thus and so, but do "x" "y" and "z" instead, but if we don't do it that way then ..........", on and on and on and on it goes. And usually in hyper warp speed, as to every single friggin thing.
If her mother moans .. "what's wrong mother?, why did you moan, are you alright?".
Mother: "Yes, I'm fine, I was just sighing out loud".
Sister: "Why did you sigh? Are you hurting, are you sure you're alright, why are you sighing what's the matter?"
Mother: "For God's sake __________________, I was just sighing, .. calm down, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, .. because if something is wrong you need to tell me".
Mother: "Everything is fine, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, we did a lot yesterday, did we do too much, maybe we shouldn't of gone to two doctors in one day .. was that too much for you, are you too tired now, maybe we need to move those other doctor appointments so we won't have two in one day, is that too much for you, for one day .. is that why you were sighing .. what's wrong, are you sure you're alright".
Hopefully that kinda gives a little bit of a snapshot of what goes on when sister is in the ring directing things.
So in mother in law's defense.. I do get it, why she wouldn't be chomping at the bit to go to her daughter's home.
BUT ....
The only experience she has with her daughter, in the last years as mother in law has aged and been unable to go anywhere much, has been the daughter coming here, periodically, for periods of about 3 weeks at a stretch. When her daughter comes here, she moves heaven and earth for her mother and then some, and doesn't sit down, doesn't stop .. the WHOLE ENTIRE TIME.
Is there a possibility maybe (as I said to mother in law, when she expressed that isn't happening - talking to me - her going to her daughters .. ever) .. could it be possible that maybe if you would go to where she lives .. she'd be more busy managing her own life in that setting than your's and she would get out of your backside .. and not be as hyper-drive-vigilant as you experience in her, when she's here, could that be possible.
The daughter is retired, lives several states away. Does come here, generally, every few months .. and stays for a period of about 3 weeks at a stretch. I wish I could make a list of everything the daughter did when here this last time, but it would take up the whole character allotment:
Unless your dad wishes to sign on for the expense of a setting such as an ALF or NH .. or his wife on his behalf with his agreement .. there's really no one that can decide that on his behalf for him .. unless he's declared incompetent and someone is named as guardian for him .. and .. I would urge you to contact APS and let them open an investigation . if your dad has skin break . and so forth and poor nourishment, things indicative of neglect, those are the things APS will need to take a look at"
Me: "Have a conversation with him .. and get his take on what he thinks of going back into his home"
With that, . that was the end of it. Brick dam wall.
There ARE situations in which hospital discharge is willing to bend a bit, but apparently this is not one of them.
Please understand that your dad has orchestrated this drama. Let it be.
in my experience the conversation that you had with the hospital
social worker sounds about right.
I can honestly say - after going through this type of thing with both of my parents - that hospital and rehab social workers are about as useless as it gets. In fact - Id go as far as to say that many of them are more than useless - they can be dishonest and detrimental.
But - you gave it your best shot. What more can you do at present - with things as they stand - beside get out of the the way - duck and cover for the impending disaster that is sure to come. I guess it would be good - if you can make it happen - to go on record with the hospital - the doctors involved in your fathers care and the admin minions that you are against any discharge plans that involve your father returning to his home and K’s care.
Your dad is driving the bus. Not much you can do at this point.
How are your brothers dealing with all this drama?
"I would urge you to contact APS and let them open an investigation . if your dad has skin break . and so forth and poor nourishment, things indicative of neglect, those are the things APS will need to take a look at"
It's possible that right now in FL there is some kind of official discouragement against SW calling into APS.
IMPORTANT NOTE: your father is deemed to be competent. The reluctance to call in APS is directly related to status of whether he is a vulnerable elder. Your father has made it clear, as have you and next of kin spouse, that he wants to go home. He is free to make poor choices. It’s called free will in the absence of being deemed incompetent by doctor and court. SW told you that you can seek guardianship as family member. otherwise reporting to APS in the middle of COVID 19 pandemic with someone actively uncooperative? They are pursuing cases that have a hope of resolution or cooperation. Your father is once again casting a line with the goal of reeling you in and getting what he wants. My FIL had to resign as MIL’s POA before my DH would intervene. And my DH is not doing what MIL FIL want... is doing what best care for her is. Don’t be mad that social worker doesn’t contact APS when you, the family member, won’t. Your father has refused to do any of the legal things you requested that would give you any power or authority. The caregivers at hospital could actually get in trouble under HIPAA for talking with you. If dad doesn’t have legal stuff in place, he is not going to. Why is it your father and your responsibility to get K into home? Barring guardianship, your father will continue to try to rope others in. My widowed bro H should come care for me and wife in my home. Your father hasn’t changed. I hope that you have. Your DH is reminding you of what the servant child looks like. Love your father, but step away from the dumpster fire. Kindness is not propping this up, it’s letting it break enough to intervene. Hugs*
A magical fairytale he likes to think about at times. Treat it like a passing cloud. Harmless way up in the sky floating past.
Unless MIL arrives with a fleet of fairies to do the caring - that ain't never gunna happen!
Tell DH to get a tutu as he would be fairy #1 😅
Eventually with a clearer big picture, this forum, 3 X doctors & 1 councillor (slow learner) I stood up, pulled the cord & got off that bus.
This has been described as a slow train wreck & I agree. My folks's can still turn their bus around, choose another road. A train is a lot harder to move tracks.
I get the reluctance to call APS. All Dad's & StepMom's agro & then mistrust, damaged relationship with you for what? They see an old couple at home. He answers OK. House ok, not a hoarder hole, not consumed by vermin. They don't say, excuse me Sir, can I have a good look in your underwear before we go?
That's what stopped me from calling. The Doctor said at this stage the cons of damage to family relationships outweighed the pros of getting on the radar. Basically it wasn't bad enough yet.
You are doing well. Being an advocate. Stay in this role & repeat NOT the yellow room!
His lack of planning does so not constitute an emergency that she needs to tend to.
There really is no relationship to damage. The whole relationship is on Dorker's end.
What a mess...
Should your Dad refuse rehab and you and your step sister refuse to pick him up when discharge time happens there might be the slim, very slim chance they will not discharge him to K if she is having a particularly bad day. Repeating herself, etc.
That happened in DHs family. Injured husband, Dementia wife. Hospital would not discharge him to her.
Talking to stepsister who spent the day interviewing c'givers. Sounds like she found a small family run biz of c'givers .. and may be deploying them onto the scene.
I asked her this question: "How's your mom with that whole set up .. I mean she ran the last one off .. "
Whole lot of dialogue, lots said between she and I to come to her answer which goes as follows: "your dad is gonna have to be the one to put his foot down with her . that if she wants him home . then a c'giver is part of that .. c'giver goes so do I".
I responded: "if he had to put his foot down right now, he's so weak that wouldn't happen . .and I think he tried .. with the prior c'giver but couldn't withstand her withering complaints and badgering that the c'giver has to go".
Long and short of that scenario however, . if he wishes to go home .. c'giver/no c'giver .. it's his decision and no one else's ... I can persuade, I can give my two cents . but that's all it is in the end. What he lives . his existence, not mine to own or fix. Felt better to kinda come to that conclusion.
And on the MIL front and DH's recent laments that his poor poor mom and her plight . stuck in a NH . a place she never wanted to end up in, .. and his laments about it all.
In discussing it with SIL who doesn't agree with her brother, my DH .. she feels sad for her mom yes . but knows in her knower . it was too much . she tried, couldn't do it .. it was too much .. she has to be in a setting with trained professional staff and shift changes of folks to handle all that can come their way in her many maladies . she doesn't agree with her brother's stance.
As she put it, .. "do you think he maybe feels that way because he never did much of the hands on care .. is that why it's easy for him to wring his hands and wish wish wish .. it could be different".
Possibly yes.
As SIL put it, .. "h377 I'm still so busy working every angle, it's practically every day of my life I'm on the phone seeing about something there at the NH ... I mean .. I had her bath time changed . because she was on an afternoon slot for baths . but it seemed that when her bathtime rolled around, she was too tired, and always declined. I asked them is there any way they can change her to a morning slot for bathing and they said yes . but then she promptly got forgotten . I mean it was like 3 weeks and she said she hadn't been bathed, so I was on that, dialing in how to get them to recognize that . and address it .. and get her bathed . it's practically every day it's something I have to dial down on .. I don't ever bother him with it all, .. I'm retired, I have time ... but I don't think he has any clue what it takes as to her care .. .. he's never had to do it".
Bingo.
Easy to say "oh I wish" .. as to his mom living here under this roof .. a lot easier to say that than to be the one to see to all the many finer points of that care on a daily basis .. Bingo.
After all this time .. I really don't let it bother me as much as it used to, his whining about it. It doesn't come up with as much regularity as it used to, so that helps also. That and the fact his mom ... however she fails at other things with mental capacity . and memory . she seems to have a rudimentary understanding of what's going on out there in the big scary world, as to Covid and she puts voice to the fact she feels safer there than she would outside.
Her new (temporary) roomie .. sounds like the woman is deaf as a post . and as such . talks incessantly and doesn't give that conversational break in talking that allows the person with you to jump in and add to the give and take of conversation .. so MIL laments that .. that she has to be stuck in a room with someone who can't hear . and as such .. talks and talks and talks . and never listens .. Says she's heard that woman's life story at least 3 or 4 x's daily every day . and no let up.
to my response to her laments on that topic .. "Well see now there's your purpose . you used to question why are you still here, what's your purpose, you've become a good listener, .. there's your purpose .. you found it .. could be worse, .. remember when you were with chatty kathy .. and she was so volatile . and exploded with random frequencies at nothingness . .at least this lady is sweet, talkative yes . but sounds like she's sweet".
Thank the heavens above that I had the fortitude to finally back away from that whole saga .. and .. NOT bring her into this home to be the c'giver .. thank GOD that I forsaw .. that wasn't tenable. I cannot imagine that I'd be dealing with .. the dad saga .. and her here with all her needs. I'd lose my mind . what's left of it, without a doubt.
It's like Dorker kept leaving a box of groceries on the porch, but he kept choosing not to bring it inside & eat. Now he's too weak to bring it in even if he wanted too.
It seems like everyone expects you to talk some sense into your father. It even seems like you think you should be able to do that, also.
IF your father gets released to his house, let's presume there will be (at least for a short while, until stepmom fires them) 24-hour help available. It will be after that the unsafe living environment and APS issue will come into play.
Of course, all of this could happen very soon, if he leaves rehab AMA. If he hasn't wanted to rock the boat with stepmom up until now, what makes you think he will be doing it now?
I'd just swat away H's comments about wishing MIL could come to the yellow room as if they were flies. You are doing very well with that!
Is your D still isolating with the kids, or has she gotten tired of that and now you are watching them?
Whole other drama with that scene .. not at all related to aging and elderly issues .. but .. not the forum for it .. suffice it to say that is yet another fire brewing that is troublesome .. their whole arena.
I don't think my dad has any intent to want to go home .. as he put it in a phone call with him yesterday .. thru his garbled feeble speech .. "I think I need to be anywhere but at my home where my welfare isn't really all that looked after"
I think he has every intention to try to go to a Rehab stint inpatient somewhere. I guess that will be up to the powers that be . .there at the hospital. As I imparted to him .. "well dad . you gotta get stronger and be participatory in Rehab or they won't take you .. right now, you complain you're so weak .. you can't even readjust yourself in bed to any comfort level, without assistance, much less get up .. in an upward position .. you have to get at least strong enough that you can participate or a Rehab site won't take you, that's how it works, ... has PT been by to do an eval on you?".
His answer . some long winding diatribe that he was to meet with the PT at his house on Tuesday (something I got reinstated for him .. for PT to resume home visits and yes .. they were to come Tuesday . today) ..; and to my redirecting him "No dad .. I'm aware they were to come to your house, don't you remember, I told you I cancelled that .. I'm asking you if they've been there, bedside at the hospital to work with you". Again he went down that road .. of the home visit that was to be, and now isn't .. and I again tried to redirect. Never did get any kind of answer that makes any sense.
I do know that was on the radar for PT to come by and do an assessment .. I haven't ck'd with the staff there to see if it's been done.
At this point, honestly I don't care. The way these things work, .. he will either be sent home (not enough time inpatient and so ... doesn't qualify for Rehab stay) .. or he will be sent to Rehab .. and I know the ropes on that issue .. he has to at least be functional enough to participate in that setting or they won't take him.
In the end, I have no say in what direction it all takes, so why bother getting in the middle of it.
It's going to be his choice .. ultimately . to return home .. almost anyone would choose that avenue .. rather than placement. That will be his ultimate choice . and he gets to decide that. I wouldn't .. I'd wanna be anywhere but home .. and all the combativeness that goes on . and the lack of adequate care ... but not my decision. I'm sure he'll be "assuring" there is now a c'giver brought to the forefront and available and so home is where he'll want to go. And questions to him about "But dad, . what are ya gonna do when your wife then begins to steer the whole thing that the c'giver needs to go .. she did it before .. what's your plan"
Any questions in that realm . will be tamped down with assurances he'll see to it they stay .. yadda yadda yadda .. whatever, lather/rinse/repeat.
Yes, it does seem there is a push .. (look no further than stepsister's supposition that ultimately if dad will go . into placement . she'll follow (K will) ... but that ultimately . he has to be the one to pull that trigger) .. and so .. there is this "push" that I am somehow to make him see the light .. and go in it's direction. I can't do that .. I've done what I can .. and will mention it again an again to him ... but .. calling APS .. for folks that are quite content to live in that dysfunction .. ??... The house isn't unkempt and crawling with roaches .. and the like ... there is food in the cupboards (whether it gets served or not .. dicey) .. there would really be no reason to go in any direction to involve APS. Not at this point.
I notice that while I slept last night, two messages were left by my dad .. (apparently not oriented as to time) .. one at 3:50 AM and another at 4:30 AM ..
I haven't called him back yet this morning . let the docs or whoever make their rounds and b'fast be dispensed with and whatever else is part of an AM routine in a hospital setting.
Called dad's brother .. and filled in the info there .. also informing him that his brother (my dad) would like if he's available . come this way .. for maybe a couple of week's stay .. and help navigate some things. H indicates he has the care of his two g'daughters over the summer and that's not going to be possible until at least August when/if school resumes. Fine by me. As I did express to him the underpinnings there of the hostile combative environment it is to be in their presence and if it were me, that alone would negate any plan to go "stay" there and be a part of it all.
H's comment: "Sounds like there are two really distinctive problems ongoing there, . your dad's poor health and his wife's dementia ... I don't know what to tell you .. maybe your dad needs to weigh the option of LTC somewhere"
To my answer: "yes I've tried to encourage he look at that going forward .. but thus far . sounds like stepsister is deploying another c'giver onto the scene .. a family owned group .. and so .. my guess is he will want to return home .. and of course, .. K will make short order of dismissing any c'giver .. in lieu of her care . that she's so completely capable of (she isn't).
H's response: "yea .. I see that .. I see there are some real problems there, .. I really don't know what to tell you .. I'll be talking to him (referring to my dad) .. at some point along in it all, and try to talk to him about it all . but I really don't have any answers for you".
Didn't figure he would .. I just called him as requested .. and apprised him of what was asked of me to do. So be it. If I were him .. I'd stay away from that scene with a 10 foot pole.
Oh well, .. at least there is sort of a lid on things with the MIL situation for the moment .. things all in disarray as to DD .. and as to my dad .. I guess I can count the silver lining that at least as regards MIL that is .. at the moment, pretty quiet.
Regarding APS - yes, unless the SW sees something directly, won't report it. My wonderful stepmom had to call APS several times on her brother in law - just living in filth. Finally the county took over and got him into care where he finally was clean and given medicine regularly - he ended up being alot of fun to visit. When his situation was normalized & he was "with it" - we found that he had a great sense of humor, full of interesting information about his service in WWII, and a competitive card player.
Regarding DD - we're here to support you on that front - you have shared over time about the hubby who has take-care-of-own-kids avoidance, her need to maintain her medication, etc. it would drive me batty to be at home all of the time with three kids under 6. Yet one more spinning plate ready to topple.
Over the past couple of years i have enjoyed and learned from your postings and have come to care about you. With all of the crazy - i do hope you are able to take a few moments each day for something you enjoy. I've been reading your posts over time and can't remember what you love to do when you have time. That probably tells me that you are so busy with work, DH, MIL drama, Dad and K drama, DD and 3 kids drama - and SIL, B and poochy drama - that you are on a racing treadmill.
God bless you.
Yet at the bottom of that whole picture is someone who leans on me, as the only relief valve in her life as to sitting with her twins .. and I'm more than willing to spend time with my twin 2 yo grandkids .. .love them dearly ..
That whole situation .. a sordid mess .. has me .. in a catch-22 of sorts .. she needs a relief valve (now more than ever .. no school, .. no options as to taking the two yo's to per se a Mom's Morning Out program .. all those types of sites are closed/Covid). So . she needs me help .. perhaps . shall we say ... maybe more than I'd otherwise be willing to do . and I do so . usually.
But .. there is a caveat of sorts in that what I'd like to see is that she reach out for the lifeline of some mental health counseling/therapy .. and begin to get some of her own affairs in order (a troubled marriage, that is controlled and manipulative .. by her husband) .. and a husband who has FOWK .. .and .. she needs to get some of these items tabled and worked thru via counseling .. and therapy .. and as of yet .. .hasn't gotten that off the ground .. and as a result . leans on me, .. as relief valve .. perhaps more than I'd normally wish to do ..
And so .. as a result . I am walking kind of a tight rope in that ... (and no her kids aren't neglected she's not so bad off that she doesn't adequately care for and love her kids . .. apparent being in their proximity she is .. even in spite of a troubled marriage .. and some mental health issues .. still very capable and loving with her kids .. so at least I don't worry they are being neglected, that isn't the case)..;.
Yes, have pushed .. as to "get yourself into some counseling.... you are obviously struggling with some serious mental health issues .. and .. marital issues that need a counselor to address, . get that going", ..
And to .. a response that weighs in about like this; "Mom I know, I almost regret at this point sharing some of this with you . because now you're worried about me and my environment . and .. you have to back up and let me handle things the way that is best suited for my little family .. I can't do things the way you want, as fast as you want, I will .. I will . but in time .. you have to back up .. and let me handle it".
All the while, .. there is relief valve Dorker . as to childcare .. and sometimes with more frequency than I'd otherwise like to be that stopgap.
So at present, as I wade through things with my dad .. and that whole saga . there is also a mindset in my psyche of .. "ok, well I don't want to be more of a problem to DD .. she's got enough problems .. so I won't push and become yet one more thing she has to attend to . that she expresses not being ready to attend to .. so I'll back up . she knows how I feel, my concerns .. and so I'll back up . but I also won't be as *at the ready* as that relief valve she so routinely seems to need", .. get it addressed .. get some professionals involved, I am not a licensed mental health counselor. And far too close to the whole situation to have any ability to be objective at all. Get some professional help. Okay you aren't ready to pull that trigger even though I've clearly stated my concerns .. gotcha . but don't call upon me .. as much as you've seemingly needed to.
No she isn't suicidal . wreckless as h377 yes .. but some of that is born . so it seems now that she opens up about how her world looks . is borne out of a controlling, lying, manipulative husband .. who .. has FOWK disease.
Suffice it to say now that I know more than she's ever shared before, I detest her husband . and so nice . he works for us .. NOT.
Not good.
You are in my thoughts.
DD has some real issues that aren't going to resolve in any real way .. until .. some professional help is brought into the mix.
It's like the alcoholic that can't go to work because they stayed out drinking all night .and the spouse that calls in sick for them .. or .. cleans up the plate of food that spilled as they sat too drunk to eat it. No, . the person with the problem has to own it . and work to fix it . not be 'enabled' to continue in that vain.
But yet . when I push . and I have . that she get this to some professionals to sort it out .. I get push back .. in the form of .. "not ready for that .. I have to take this in my own time at my own pace .. if I try to say to my DH that we need counseling . he's gonna get real defensive .. and not be compliant .... ", as she put it, "Mom I don't fight with him anymore, my fight is gone ... I just don't .. and he's so controlling and lies and is manipulative (she cites numerous examples) and gas lights me to the point I think I'm crazy .. so I just don't fight him anymore .. so for me to come at him that he needs to go to a counselor will come out of left field to him . he thinks everything is fine, I don't fight .. he will jump on the defensive and tell me that I'm the one that is nutz . and need help not him .. I have to handle this my own way and in my own time .. "
So in essence, I get pushback . at trying to encourage what any sensible person would encourage . get professional help DD .. ."
And if it matters (yes her husband works for us) . DD's dad knows all the sordid mess of his controlling, lying, manipulative ways .. things I would term . have just about all but driven her cheese off her cracker (now that she finally has opened up and shared some of what her world looks like) . yes her dad .. her husband's boss is aware .. and is very very . there's not even a term for it .. is so upset that he wants to fire her husband right on the spot .. just for how he (so we're told) treats our daughter, behind closed doors that he doesn't know we're aware of.
It's terribly hard for him .. being the one who signs her husband's paycheck weekly and rides with him every day of the week . him right at DH's elbow .. all day long .. DH wants to as he put it, "Drop a nuclear bomb on the whole mess" and let her husband know that he knows E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G .. that his a lying, manipulative POS and he can go find some other entity to line his pockets with a paycheck but it won't be here .. It's terribly hard for DH to know what I know and have shared with him as to what DD's world looks like, at the hands of a lying, manipulative POS husband .. one that if you didn't know better . you'd think the sun rose and set in the guy as he blows sunshine in every direction . yet goes home to run roughshod over DD .. (not physically abusive . not that I know of . but .. is very very mind games and controlling and manipulative and a liar) ..
It's a very difficult situation to be in. The only reason DH hasn't .. as he put it "lobbed a nuclear bomb" into the whole setting is because DD has asked that we not let on that we know the things she has shared .. let her handle it .. in her own time ..
When you have someone such as her husband . who thinks he blows sunshine up everybody's skirt in how wonderful he is and the son rises and sets in him .. (and we bought it all for a long long time .. suspecting things aren't as they appear .. because things don't add up) .. but now that we know .. we know .. at least DD's version of how things in real time in her world . with him as her husband .. when you go tell him .. "ok, the gig is up you lying POS .. " .. he's gonna turn .. and point the finger and lie some more and deny deny deny .. and then in the end . who blows up that marriage . not her . because her dad lobbed a bomb into it .. so . we stand down (for now).
That is what is needed at this point, not marriage counseling. She can go without his knowing while he's at work, if you watch the kids.
Is there a reason she won't do that?
{folks who are lying, gaslighting, manipulative pieces of $hit have personality disorders that can't be fixed by therapy; ask me how I know}. She needs to be seen individually.
Maybe I'll try to write it all out here and it'll be cathartic .. maybe someone has some experience to share having lived the same thing in themselves or a LO ..
So .. ya know, let me just say this before I start. You always think if you can have those "told ya so" moments .. that it'll be so rewarding to get to say "told ya so". It isn't ..
I tried so hard to have a 19 yo DD not marry this guy so long ago .. so so so hard. The guy had shown a propensity for some controlling behaviors . couldn't keep a job (the only reason he has one now, is pity from DD's dad) ... just some real concerns on my part, begged her not to marry him . but marry him she did. You think if you can ever have one of those "tried to tell ya" .. "told ya so" moments that you'll be able to pat yourself on the back .. doesn't really work that way when your daughter looks at you all these years later, 3 kids .. and utters the words "you tried to tell me .. so now ... go ahead and say it, told ya so".
This all began several weeks back .. oh I'd say about the time the world began shutting down due to Covid . about that time. At that time I'd been terribly sick (tried to get tested for Covid but no dice .. didn't happen). But nevertheless .. wasn't able to help and pitch in with kiddo care, too sick.
So .. on a specific wknd long about in that time frame ... DD's husband had taken the work truck home (w/permission) but DH needed the truck .. so went over to retrieve it. When he did so . his intent was to just grab the truck and go . but DD stepped outside, "Dad can you come in I need to talk to you". He obiged.
Once he went inside, . in the home and present were the twins . and DD's hubby when DD then spilled the beans that she had been caught in the day or two prior at Target shoplifting.
I know, .. color me shocked. This is someone who hasn't had so much as a traffic infraction ..
Shoplifting, caught .. at Target.
Gets worse. Turns out she had left her 3 kids unattended in the car to do so. And yes I say do so .. as .. as the story unfolded, . this wasn't new .. this shoplifting thing (and DD is 31 .. she isn't 17) .. apparently this whole shoplifting thing .. thus far into the story .. (it gets deeper later) .. it had been an ongoing endeavor .. (who knew, I sure did not) .. caught stealing a couple of dresses from Target. I dunno . kids dresses, dresses for her .. I didn't ask. Doesn't matter. Caught nonetheless.
Turns out as the story then gets told . this is something that had been going on . in fact, . she'd left her d/w to go steal .. knowing full well what she was doing when she pulled out of the d/w. Yes, .. fully aware stealing is wrong .. when asked this . (trying to decipher has she lost any grip with reality here) .. no . she's completely aware stealing is wrong .. yep. Why? Then why were you doing that? More on that later.
But .. turns out .. she not only was caught shoplifting . she had left her 3 kids in the car (locked car) . while she obliged herself of whatever inside of Target . and now caught .. obvious she is going to be detained by security and law enforcement . she now had to be forthcoming w/Loss Prevention that she had 3 kids in the car outside ..
Why DCF wasn't called to the scene, I will never know .. but they weren't. Maybe the Loss Prevention personnel knew . at this time w/schools locked down . kids in abusive homes and whatever . this is small fries to DCF . so they were never called .. not by law enforcement that was in fact called to the scene . for DD to have then been put in the back of the squad car .. and another law enforcement officer who then went to DD's car, and directed the 6 yo to roll down the window so the police
so the police could question the 6 yo who had been left with the two yo's in the locked car. Asking who she is . how old are you, how old are your brother and sister, etc.
This ... it turns out was traumatic to the 6 yo .. first off .. her mother hasn't returned to the car in what must've been a really long long time .. what must've happened to my mom .. and what do I do ... and now there is a police person here asking me all kinds of questions . and I don't know where my mom is .. .what's happened to my mom. This ... it gets told .. caused the 6 yo (of course) to be inconsolable and sobbing, terrified. Understandably.
In the end, .. DD was allowed to return to her auto . to her car, charged with a misdemeanor of theft .. and released . after having been made to feel (by store personnel, loss prevention and law enforcement) about the lower than a snake's belly that she is, .. for doing that . not only are you stealing . but you're leaving kids unattended in the car to do it ..
But in the end, . she was released .. to return to her auto and her kids, to depart there. Charge a misdemeanor . and so a court date to come ..
Not sure why this info was shared with DH . one might think it would be so he would pay the freight for an atty . but no .. turns out . they got a rather large sum as a tax return . and so have plenty of $ ... and so no .. no one asking DH to pay for an atty for her. Still not sure why she divulged this info.
And no, the 6 yo was never made aware that mommy was detained because she was being held by police for "STEALING" .. all she knew was that .. someone saw unattended kids in the car, and called the police, and the police were questioning her for having left kids unattended .. so the 6 yo . to this day doesn't know that mommy was in the store thieving.
The 6 yo nonetheless, . pretty traumatized. On the radar for their world that same day was that the other g'pa (not us) was to come get the 6 yo to take her along with him to their home (as happens routinely) . and the 6 yo . inconsolable even hours later . when it was time for the g'pa to come that way ... DD figured they better spill the beans . as the 6 yo will likely do so. And so when the other g'pa got there to pick up the 6 yo . the info as to the happenings earlier in the day (complete with the shoplifting and being detained there) was shared with him, .. along with what the 6 yo experienced in that setting and that she's been pretty upset .. ever since.
Of course, we didn't know any of this until a few days after it all occurred. DH had gone there to get his truck . and was summoned inside by DD who then told him .. "I was caught shoplifting at Target" ..
Of course, DH then came home . and really . pretty white as a ghost to the tune you know something dreadful has happened, .. summoned me and YD .. "c'mere need to talk to you two", and he then shared with us what DD had told him at her house ..
Could've knocked me over w/a feather. I felt gut punched. What? Why? Why would she ............ A) leave her kids unattended ....... and B) go steal . she knows better than that .. dam she's known that since she was 5 yo . what the h377 is wrong w/her.
That's when DH began telling me .. "she has a problem I don't know .. I mean . she says this has been going on .. this isn't new .. yea . she knows stealing is wrong . she just hoped she wouldn't get caught . but this is something she felt compelled/driven to do . and it's been going on .. she has problems, something is wrong with her".
After taking a while to catch my breath behind this news, .. DH said to me, "you're gonna need to call her .. she knows I'm gonna tell you".
To be quite honest, I didn't know what to say to her, I was trying to sit with the knowledge she would be so dam wreckless as to leave her kids unattended, but not only that .. leave her d/w knowing what she was going to do .. why .. ???...what do you say to that person ..??
I wasn't "ready" to call her. Part of me wanted to go to her house and stomp the chit out of her .. and the other part of me completely bewildered in a 'her cheese has slid off her cracker obliviously, Dear GOD what do we do".
But that's when the phone rang and it was DD calling. I answered it ..
DD: "Did dad share with you the saga on our end?".
Me: "yea . trying to absorb what has happened here, DD WTH??? Why? What were you thinking .. ??.... I mean .. leaving the kids alone in the car ..?!??!!??!?....... but not only that, .. going in and knowingly stealing .. what were you thinking?".
DD: I know, I'm sorry . more than anything in the world . I feel about six inches tall for what I did to L (6 yo) . she was so traumatized and I got read the riot act by the police, for leaving what is a 6 yo in the car to tend to the twins ... as they put it .. "she doesn't have the capacity at her age to manage the various things that could happen .. to have left her in charge of that setting is wreckless .. ".. and I agree, . and I'm so so sorry .. I will n.e.v.e.r. do that again .. I feel so low for having put my L through that .. I know ..
Me: ...and stealing . why DD? Why? You know stealing is wrong, you've known that since you were 5 yo .. why?
DD: I know .. it's just .. I dunno .. I mean .. it's just something I've been doing . and once you do it and you see how easy it is to get away with .. you do it again and again ..
Me: "So you weren't worried you'd get caught".
DD: "Yes .. always worried that could happen . but really . it's pretty easy . easier than you'd think .. I mean .. I know .. and stupid . but I don't know . I mean . you go to Walmart to get groceries . go thru the self checkout line . you find out nobody is watching . you stick this and that in your bag and don't pay for it . it's really . easier than I thought it would be .. I've been doing it ..
Me: Just walmart and groceries
DD: No .. groceries at times . but clothes at other times .. shoes . stuff like that
Me: "Why? .. why not just BUY IT ... you know the risk . are you trying to wreck your marriage .. lose custody of your kids as someone that would act that risky . what are you thinking?'.
DD: I know . I'm sorry .. I have learned my lesson BELIEVE ME .. that whole scene . .sitting in the back of the police car .. scared to death for my kids that I left unattended, wondering if DCF will be showing up .. wondering if I'm gonna be carted to jail .. it scared me to death .. I was .. inconsolable myself . and they all made me feel about like six inches tall . and justifiably so .. .
In the end, .. me urging her .. "if you aren't able to act without this kind of wreckless behavior you need to get some help DD . I mean this is not the behavior of someone that is a rational acting person .. you have to get some help
Her agreeing that yes . she needs to seek help ..
Asking of her . how is this going with her husband . has he threatened to throw her out .. her answering no . he is furious .. yes . and threatens that if I do it again . he will do just that . and take the kids .. and will have grounds to do just that .. and so no ... I don't want to lose my kids . or my marriage .. and so .. no .. I'm not gonna do that ever again . not leave the kids unattended or steal .. I learned my lesson ..
Within a few days she was asking me to watch her kids and I had to be honest with her that I have a problem .. allowing her carte blanche to free time . will she use it to go steal again . what have you done to get yourself seen by a mental health group .. what's being done on that front.
That brought forth some pondering on her part as to whether she is maybe bipolar .. for the impulsivity and .. lack of rational thought . and actions . and that yes . she has wondered this . and has put in a call to a psych group but with Covid . unless you are in imminent danger in which case, . go to the hospital or . an established patient .
If she could be persuaded to see a MH professional now, that would document to the court that she had recognized a problem and was taking steps to seek help.
Sending you hugs and prayers Dorker, I hope you are able to take short breaks for taking care of yourself throughout the day! Thank you for sharing with us.
that they aren't taking new patients .. to my countering then get with another group .. you have to get this off the ground DD . that is not rational behavior . you have to get seen . and her assurances she was working that angle to try to get seen but Covid preventing it at this point, and my encouraging that she stay on it like white on rice .. be the squeaky wheel.
Her answering to my concerns about free time . is she gonna go steal again . that no .. that left such a deep scar that whole scare that she has no intent to do that again and that all she can do is share that with me and I have to trust that she won't .. and so in the end I took the kids . and she did whatever it was she had to go do. That went off without event.
And so . beyond that I would ask again .. and again . as to how's it going getting set up with a psych group and the answers would be much the same as above .. as to Covid complicating any ability to get seen but that she's working on it ..
And so beyond that .. times of watching the kids . so she could .. clean house, go to the grocery store, .. whatever . sporadically . and ..
Then fast forward another week or two into this .. it was the end of the work day . I had the 6 yo here . and the guys came in from work .. and .. her husband left here with the 6 yo to go home . and .. plans afoot here for YD to go visit her sister DD later in the evening .. I was aware of.
Until.. YD came to me and said the following: "Well I guess I won't be going to DD's house . she and her hubby are fighting . and so she says it's not a good time for me to come there .. ".
Me; "about what, did she say?".
YD: No let me ask her, . that's not like them to fight .. usually they might flare for a minute but it doesn't drag out with them . let me ask her and she did so
Answer YD got from DD: "Hubby got home from work today to a notice from Kohls . where I'd been caught shoplifting there and a $200 some odd fee that has to be paid and he's livid .. and so .. it's not good here".
YD imparts that to me ..
Me: "What? When? .. she got caught at Kohls shoplifting when? I knew about Target did she shoplift again?'
YD: I don't know ..
She asks her older sister DD . and the answer . "no Kohls was before Target . I got caught at Kohls before I got caught at Target".
So now I'm hearing this and of course, I'm of the mindset . what the living h377 . she got caught at Kohls . and that didn't scare the chit out of her enough that she did it again . and got caught at Target .. I would think one getting caught is enough to scare them straight . but apparently not . and what's this notice that came in the mail .. I mean . does Kohls what .. ??..watch you walk out of the store with their merchandise . and not stop you . and what .. ???..write down your tag # and send you some arbitrary bill in the mail . what .. ???....
Of course, no answer to that.
So .. of course now .. I know that YD was told not to come there . that they were fighting and I know the cause .. and of course .. I'm worried sick about her .. and has he (this was before I knew more that you will read later) . and so I'm wondering has he thrown her out in the street now . now that he's paid for an atty now for the charges from the Target thing .. and now . now another notice comes of a shoplifting event . and why .. why wasn't she on that mailbox like a hawk . knowing full well she'd been caught . did she not know she'd been caught . does Kohls let people walk out with their merchandise .. what .. ??
So I texted her ..
Me: "DD is everything okay over there .. ?".
No answer.
By now .. she had indeed gotten in for an appt with the psych group . spent some time w/a therapist and was then referred on the spot to the psych doc for an rx . and dx there bipolar ... prelim anyway . and so meds rx'd . and her sent on her way . she'd been seen now . finally . in the day or two prior to this latest .. and I was aware that the meds they rx'd
the meds they rx'd . she'd had a couple of days to take them . and at bed time as rx'd . and they knock her out cold ..
So this is later at night that I'm texting inquiring if all is okay on her end, no answer.
Texted again . .after a while, . no answer.
I'm trying not to get all overwrought at this point .. and just chalk it up . maybe she went to bed, she did say those meds knock her out . maybe that's all it is.
When her husband called.
S (her husband) .. "hey I see here on her phone you were trying to reach her .. and check on her, she's in bed . those meds they put her on . she takes those and is out like a light ... I had her phone . her phone is all screwed up now . somehow it fell out of her pocket when she was bathing the twins .and I don't guess she knew it . and one of the kids got it and poured water on it, so her phone is all but shot, . it's like half a screen now, . so now we're gonna have to get that replaced .. I mean .. I have insurance on it, so I'll have to pay the deductible . but . we'll have to have them send a new phone . so .. but she's in bed asleep she's fine".
Me; "Ok, .. well what is this with the Kohls thing? I mean I'm trying to understand . when did she get caught at Kohls stealing?
Her husband: "Sometime back in February .. back before she got caught at Target".
Me; So .. what is it you got in the mail . I mean .. if she was caught I assume they take whatever she was taking from there and don't let her leave with it .. what is it you got in the mail that you now have to pay $200 some odd
Her husband: "it's some fee .. for loss prevention services . if we don't pay it they turn it over to collections .. it's a fee ..
Me; Oh okay .. I was trying to wrap my brain around that, it sounded like she was charged or something and I'm trying to figure out how they charge her and let her walk out with whatever she was stealing . and then send a bill .. ok I get it. S, I'm worried sick about her, . these are irrational actions . what in the world ..
Her husband: I know . me too .. well remember . ya know . back several months ago when she was like suicidal and stuff .. I knew then she has some problems . but at that time .. our hands were tied, we really didn't have health insurance and no way to address it . but we did get that in place now . and she's being seen . and so . hopefully some of that .. whatever .. I don't know . they say bipolar .. hopefully with some meds . things will get better .. I hope.
Me to her husband: "I'm really worried about her ... I want her to go and be seen there, . I mean throw pills at it yea . but counseling is gonna have to be part of that too ..
Her husband: "yea I know . . I'm sure she'll see it through ..
Me to her husband: "I wonder . would it be possible tomorrow that I have some time alone with her . everytime I'm around her, the kids are underfoot and you can't even hold any kinda thought to have an intelligent conversation . do you think you could watch the kids for a bit tomorrow and I could have her ear for a little while, would that be possible".
Her husband: "Sure . I'll tell her tomorrow when she wakes up .. I'll let her know . and we'll make that happen no problem".
(((Surprising to me he'd be so amiable to that . never happens any other time .. and I am . read this carefully ... THE ONLY person .. that watches her kids . not his folks . they won't watch the twins . e.v.e.r. and we know he has FOWK . and doesn't do so .. and so . what I say about I never get her ear . that the kids aren't under foot and one can't even talk with any consistency at all the hoopla with kids underfoot . so .. yea .. surprising he was so amiable to that as a set up . until .. wait for it))))
So the next AM .. I get a call from DD .. "Hey S says you wanted to talk to me".
Me talking to DD: "Yea .. I do .. I kinda want a few mins to talk to you . this whole Kohls thing . DD .. what the h377 .. I mean ..
can you come over, . or want me to come get you . I'd like to have a few mins alone with you to talk to you the kids are always undefoot and .. it's hard to talk to you . too many distractions . do you think we could do that
DD: "Let me check with S .. I'll let you know".
She texts me in a few, her answer: "Not gonna happen . as usual he won't watch the kids .. .. how about tomorrow while they're napping if you wanna come over".
Me: So it's not gonna happen then . can't get your ear .. you'll have to lay down with the kids for them to nap . not gonna happen right"
DD in a few mins: "ok, well .. we have a lot of errands to run so S says we can come by there while we're out running errands . .. maybe 20 mins .. will that work?"
Me; "yes I'll take it"
At this point ... (you'd have to know the history of all that I suspect with regard to her husband to understand) .. and so I thought to myself he can go pound sand if he thinks I'm gonna "talk to her" . and have a few mins with her, w/kids under foot and him here too .. not gonna happen. Everything is closed, not like we can go have a nice salad lunch out . but I'll be dammed if I'm gonna sit right here in the midst of the kids under foot (as is usually the case, . one doesn't get he alone . always . always .. always . the kids ... and/or him) .. I'l be dammed .. I want her ear . alone . and so we'll drive and park in a walmart parking lot and talk, but it's gonna be without the kids and him .. just her.
So they arrive here, . 3 kids and husband in tow . and I got my car keys .. c'mon let's go .. and off we went .. and YD wanted to go so she joined.. but not the kids not her husband.
We'd no sooner gotten in the car and out of the d/w before DD says the following: "You guys have no idea the chit I had to hear from him to be able to do this .. I mean . he is all about . what the h377 does your mother want . she wants to hash and rehash this stealing thing . she needs to stay the eff out of our biz . what the h377 . and why .. what biz is it of her's . and why do we have to go by there .. why can't she just talk to you on the phone .. why does she want to be alone with you .. what is it she's got to say that I can't hear .. ya'll have no idea the chit I had to put up with to make this happen"
(((what kinda controlling POS would *divide* someone from their bio family . a bio family that has been so kind and generous through the years .. employing her husband when his propensity prior to that was to not be able to keep a job and the only reason he has a job at all is because DH sees the precious eyes of his g'kids . and wants to make sure a steady paycheck flows through that inept POS . and has wanted several times to fire him for his ineptness but doesn't because of his precious g'kids .. and so what kinda POS that has been the recipient of more generosity than should be allowed by law thru the years . would deny her any time to spend with her bio mom .. and sister .. but that's been the status quo . one doesn't get her alone .. it just does not happen".
So it was then that she began to spill the beans .. of how controlling and manipulative he is . that . yes stealing is wrong . but when you live with him that you have to beg and plead and justify and argue for every dime you can get . and even then it may not happen . stealing became a lot easier ..
So he knew you were stealing .. "yes . he was with me, at least at walmart and groceries . he would encourage me to do so . with me there . hey do ya think you could get away with that . can you take this .. and we'd ring up our grocery order .. paying for some, but sliding some of it into the bag not having paid for it . he knew .. he was right there .. and we'd come home and count out how much we saved .. like you'd do if you used coupons .. and the spoils of our efforts, he knew .. yes ..
Me: Did he know you were stealing clothes too was he there?".
DD: Yes . he knew . he wasn't with me . and he was