I've posted before about in-law care-giving. Aged mother in law, lives in same town.
We are at the tail end of a visit from sister in law from several states away. Sister in law has been here for 3 weeks caring for her mother. A much welcome respite.
It had been discussed, prior to her arrival here on the scene, she would be talking it over with her mother, to try and get her mom to come up to her home, for a stay of maybe a few months.
This, in my opinion, is absolutely essential, as I am expecting twin grand-children, due in about 1 month (if they don't come sooner, as is the case a lot of times with multiples pregnancies). The expectant mother also lives locally here, and has a 4 year old daughter. I will be on that front, helping .. as much as is needed. And not on the front with mother in law and care-giving, and have made that as obvious and apparent as I know how to make it. It would be great if mother in law would agree to go to her daughter's home (several states away) for a period of a few months .. and allow me the latitude to put my energies where I want them to be, on my daughter who will have had a c-section .. and my grand-daughter (4 years old) and new twin babies.
Nothing doing. Mother in law has dug in her heels, and will not hear of it, going to stay with her daughter for any period of time.
What are her reasons?
In mother in law's defense ... her daughter ... I don't even know how to describe it. I will say that when her daughter comes here to visit, she all but breathes for her mother and if she could find a way to do that, she'd do that too. She is the most nervous nelly, never sit down - ever ... worry wart, do everything, all the time .. person that I've ever encountered.
A great example, as I was taking her to the airport yesterday for her departure, . I reached into the fridge to grab myself a bottled water and shut the fridge and turned to walk away, as I've done for all of my 50 plus years living on this earth .. and she said to me, "Oh make sure that fridge shut". WTH???? Like I don't know how to shut a fridge? That's just a small, very small slice of what she is ... how she is.
She is so very hyper-vigilant, seeing to every minute details down to it's finest most minuscule point, fine tooth comb, questioning every point along the way, "should we do thus and so, but maybe if we do thus and so, then such and such will happen, maybe we should do it thus and so .. but then so and so might happen, maybe we shouldn't do thus and so, but do "x" "y" and "z" instead, but if we don't do it that way then ..........", on and on and on and on it goes. And usually in hyper warp speed, as to every single friggin thing.
If her mother moans .. "what's wrong mother?, why did you moan, are you alright?".
Mother: "Yes, I'm fine, I was just sighing out loud".
Sister: "Why did you sigh? Are you hurting, are you sure you're alright, why are you sighing what's the matter?"
Mother: "For God's sake __________________, I was just sighing, .. calm down, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, .. because if something is wrong you need to tell me".
Mother: "Everything is fine, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, we did a lot yesterday, did we do too much, maybe we shouldn't of gone to two doctors in one day .. was that too much for you, are you too tired now, maybe we need to move those other doctor appointments so we won't have two in one day, is that too much for you, for one day .. is that why you were sighing .. what's wrong, are you sure you're alright".
Hopefully that kinda gives a little bit of a snapshot of what goes on when sister is in the ring directing things.
So in mother in law's defense.. I do get it, why she wouldn't be chomping at the bit to go to her daughter's home.
BUT ....
The only experience she has with her daughter, in the last years as mother in law has aged and been unable to go anywhere much, has been the daughter coming here, periodically, for periods of about 3 weeks at a stretch. When her daughter comes here, she moves heaven and earth for her mother and then some, and doesn't sit down, doesn't stop .. the WHOLE ENTIRE TIME.
Is there a possibility maybe (as I said to mother in law, when she expressed that isn't happening - talking to me - her going to her daughters .. ever) .. could it be possible that maybe if you would go to where she lives .. she'd be more busy managing her own life in that setting than your's and she would get out of your backside .. and not be as hyper-drive-vigilant as you experience in her, when she's here, could that be possible.
The daughter is retired, lives several states away. Does come here, generally, every few months .. and stays for a period of about 3 weeks at a stretch. I wish I could make a list of everything the daughter did when here this last time, but it would take up the whole character allotment:
Why would I not turn and say "sorry dad . you're on your own", and let him be subject to the atty as his designate or the state designate for that matter. I guess, because I'm a better person than that, .. I will rise above the treatment I got .. from him, I'm bigger than that.
Likely why, in part, .. I end up in positions that I could've chosen not to be part of ... and ... a lot of consternation .. that I could've chosen to not be part of. SIL and MIL in the past for one. Did I not learn anything?
Yes, I did .. and I weigh out .. going forward as DPOA with a situation where his wife is bat chit nutz and likely won't take it laying down . .that he'd designate me in that role .. and .. me, the person he so consistently chose to push to the periphery for years .. decades ...
I weigh it out .. as I sit there with him prior to today's procedure .. and other times I've been advocate for him .. and ... I watch what goes on ..
He is not in any position at this point, to advocate on his own behalf . it's all .. at this point in his capabilities . beyond him to do so . and bewildering as to what's going on around him. He doesn't even think to ask the appropriate questions, "Dad why are you still on an antibiotic?". He doesn't know. Hasn't asked.
Questions, such as the one I asked of the cardio doc who then reported in that the heart is fine .. no problems. "Why is he having edema issues?". No answer from cardio doc, . only "it's not his heart" .. but then me, thinking . okay well let me reach out to the Pulmonary team and ask them . and have done so .. waiting for a return phone call on that.
Those just health advocacy stuff .. and he has no one else, to do so. Yes, I could turn and walk away and with a flip of care .. and tell the SW there on site, .. assign him someone, I dunno.
I'm not that person. Even though he .. chose ... at one point in his life .. along the continuum of his life to push me and a brother to the periphery .. even still ... as I weigh out .. do I want to do the same to him . and just stiff arm him .. as I've been done, no, it's not me. That's not me.
Likely why at one point I found myself sunk in the mire of the MIl saga and yet powerless to do anything to direct it, it's who I am, I guess. Helper .. bigger person than to walk away with a "not my problem".
I will help him ... certainly more than he deserves. But with limits. Notice the yellow bedroom hasn't been offered, and won't be. Notice ... there has been no stepping up to follow behind his wife and/or take care of her and her needs. Notice ... I will help, but with limits.
I have dropped it as to running behind trying to get a ckbook he asked for .. opting instead to do the legal channel .. when I get DPOA . then I will do what's needed as to accessing his info to take care of it, legally .. but not get into the muck and mire of his wife and her stiff arming me. I have dropped it.
I'll advocate for him .. as best I can (I'm not medically trained, so some of what I ask on his behalf might be stupid and unnecessary . but I'm all he's got). I'll advocate for him, I'll visit him some .. I'll get DPOA and get to the heart of financial stuff and make sure his bills are dispensed with ..
What will I do when his wife rises from the ashes with a vengeance not even imagined. I will just go about the biz of what I've been designated to do .. and she can't change it. Yes, as the atty told me this afternoon .. "well people can hire atty's for almost anything . if she wants to be shady and try to do that, yes she can do that .. she'd be fighting an uphill battle .. to do it . but people do all sorts of things. yes .. she can make a lot of noise ... but it'll be an uphill battle
it'd be an uphill battle for her .. to try to undo any legal DPOA .. she can try .. people do.
So what will I do when she raises her ire .. and ugliness ensues . ugliness that I don't want or didn't ask for .. what will I do. I'll just go about the biz of what I signed on to do ...
I can't get his ckbook, she won't give it to me . but the bank will, with DPOA in hand . and I'll go get it. I can't get his LTC policy .. I don't have access to walk into his house and rifle thru his file drawers . but with DPOA .. I can get at it, and I will. His cc acct .. I don't have the ability to rifle thru his papers in his home . she is stiff arming that .. I'll go at it thru the back door, call the cc company with DPOA in hand . and go the legal channels. Her harping in the b'ground .. I guess she can do so.
So far, I've ignored her phone calls and deferred to her daughter to deal with .. and I can continue to do so.
Does he deserve that I step into that fray. No, he probably does not .. he certainly didn't step into the fray when I was a child . many years ago . and shorting my mom (custodial parent) on child support checks he should've been more generous with.
I guess I'm just not that person . and he gets to benefit from that. I just don't have that kind of constitution .. to hold his wrongs .. and harbor them in a fashion of looking at a pretty helpless old man at this point . and justify . not within myself and who I am .. turning away from it all. It's just not who I am.
I'll get it set up that brother and myself both are DPOA .. and proceed from there, if dad is agreeable to the fee for same . and if not . then my hands are tied can't help him . and that's my approach.
Is my inner child seeking the love and warmth that should've been there eons ago . from a dad who pushed us to the periphery or a stepmom who did the same? I don't think so, but who knows.
I remember the other day how much it struck me, how different I am than stepmom ...
Me over there to help and Stepmom commenting on my pretty toenails of all things and yes, it was snide on her part, . she who prides herself in never parting with an unnecessary dollar . and getting one's toenails done . would be wholly unnecessary spending of dollars in her view. She was being snide ... I was there to help . at my dad's request, when she said to her husband (my dad) "Oh B . look at her toenails ... oh Dorker you must've gotten in somewhere to get your toenails done".
Me: "yea I did, they opened up again from the whole Covid thing, it was glorious to go get a pedicure . .. missed being able to do that".
Stepmom; "I've never had a pedicure .. have I honey? The money in my pocketbook is more important to me than pretty toenails".
Me: "You don't like to be pampered?".
Stepmom: "Ha! Pampered?!?! No .. I prefer those dollars stay in my wallet, right honey?".
She was being snide.
It struck me . as that little exchange went on .. just how different she and I are .. and that I don't give a chit what she thinks of my wallet and my toenails . and how I spend my $, I don't care.
I hear from her daughter who is bipolar how she can't even talk to her bat chit nutz mom about the meds she takes .. her mom will come undone that pills are poison . that she needs to pull her bootstraps up ..
She's nutz .. so yea . she'll come out of the woodwork mad as a hornet .. count on it.
Do I find that so repugnant that I would turn from doing this to help him . he who doesn't deserve my help based on how he chose to live his life .. as a dad .. no, it's not who I am.
I guess, I'm just a bigger person than that. That's about all I can say as I weigh it all out with an awareness of the ugliness that is to come.
She's never accepted me or my brother, she's not gonna start now. Do I hope that somehow she will find in me the loving acceptance, now that I step up to the plate to help dad, h377 no, not gonna happen. I expect it.
Im not suggesting that you don’t take over the care of your fathers details - be they health related or financial. I’ve never said that - I don’t think from the beginning of his health issues - but certainly not since this last fiasco that began with him left at the mercy of a dementia stricken wife - stewing in his own waste and sick. Whether he put himself into that position at the start is actually immaterial to me.
I am likely the only person in Dorkerville that thinks that you stepping in is the right thing to do. Everyone else - please don’t throw cyber stones at me.
I also think - for the most part - that how he treated you as a child and later as a sideline adult daughter is immaterial. I think it’s pretty lousy - but immaterial.
It has nothing to do with you being a “bigger person” - whether you would advocate in the same way for any poor orphan left on your doorstep - because that’s who you are: A Giver. A Helper. A Problem Solver...
What I AM saying is know - REALLY KNOW - why you are doing this and what are your expectations from all of it but ESPECIALLY from your dad.
I THOUGHT I knew why I was helping my mother. I was kidding myself. And, while I would do it all over again - knowing what I know now, I would go into it - hopefully - being a little more realistic and honest with myself. Then, in the end - when the warm, fuzzy happy ending with statements of appreciation, approval, love, apologys and confessions didn’t come - I wouldn’t be left as damaged and with more questions than when I started.
A cautionary tale, I guess - from one Inner Child to another.
I think the difference between me and the others here as it relates to your father and DPOA is -
They are saying “Don’t do it, Dorker! It’s gonna be an effing mess and you’re gonna get hurt”.
Im saying “Go ahead and do it, Doker. It’s gonna be an effing mess and KNOW that you’re gonna get hurt”.
I crack myself up, sometimes.
On a related but side note. Don’t get too excited about that DPOA paper - it’s no magic wand. Many banks refuse to recognize them - don’t know how they get away with it but they do. A lot. As for waving it at the LTC insurance guy? It will go like this - You’ll call and tell him who you are and what you need and that you have DPOA. He tells you he’s gonna mail you a form. If your lucky you won’t have to call back in a week and start over at the beginning because the form never came. The form you’re to fill out says you’re DPOA and then you have to have it notarized - after which you mail the notarized form along with a copy of the DPOA back If you’re lucky - they’ll get it the first time or you’ll have to do it all again. They’ve told you once they have the form they can talk to you - never mind that that makes zero sense cause anyone could be “you” on the phone... How do you know they’ve gotten the form? You have to call... a lot. If your lucky, no one “has it on their desk for review” or a dozen other excuses. Okay. They have the form. You called to make sure. NOW you can request a copy of the LTC policy. If you’re lucky - they won’t send you a form to formally request a copy of the policy - the phone request will do. 2-6 weeks later the policy arrives. If you’re lucky.
Think I’m making this chit up? Any other DPOAs out there - am I making this up?
... just sayin’
I'm suggesting the lawyer as POA because he and his firm have better resources to help your dad and K.
The firm's social worker can help figure out how to get K the care she needs and can help your dad make that happen.
My POA brother did get my mother's LTC to pay up. (I wasn't POA, but I'm the one who knew where the policy was and sat with my brother as he had the phone conversations with the LTC company.) And, as Rainmom said, stalling is the name of the game. Multiple calls and emails required. Repeated documentation from the SNF lost and needing to be resubmitted. And it will be even more difficult for Dorker, because she doesn't have the documentation of her father's LTC policy. That is with SS and C. She is also correct in that banks honoring DPOAs can be difficult, perhaps (probably?) complicated by the fact that K is also on the account. She is going to be constantly fighting with K, and it won't at all be as simple as waving a DPOA in front of K and getting access to everything.
...a beautiful transition into the sunset stage for Dad & K would be granted...
Dorker & SS would follow a smooth golden path & become POA's for each parent. Dorker & SS would seamlessly agree & skip together towards this common goal.
But sorry, I'm just not seeing this picture.
I'm seeing SS on a hard path regarding K - although K seems to trust her son-in-law, so she may follow his advice.
Dorker's path? Flying monkeys & poison poppies! Will having control of Dad's finances be worth the tremendous fallout against team K? (K, SS & her DH?
That's what worked so amazingly well with MIL. The relationship with SIL may have changed & been tested but certainly was preserved.
What relationships are important to keep intact in the land of the future this time?
I don't think Dorker cares if there is no relationship preserved with K or SS. There hasn't been much of any relationship, anyway. It's interesting to me that she is resentful of K's treatment of her over the years, and has repeatedly said that anything that happens to K (driving and causing an accident, setting the house on fire, etc.) doesn't concern her and that it is SS's concern. I would say that Dorker should also be more hands-off in regards to her father, because he also participated in the bad treatment in the past of Dorker. That is what I think, and I don't think many agree.
For some reason, she seems to think her father still deserves her help. She can be a "bigger" person in regards to him, but not to K. She talks about leaving him to his own devices, but in the end seems to cave and do his bidding (although admittedly to a lesser degree than he would like, so there is that).
So I kinda have at least some exposure to how that whole thing goes and in general .. it goes nowhere . into an abyss .. and nobody accountable ... anywhere. That, I saw just as the lowly little person employed by big huge behemoth insurance company and fielding phone calls as an employee, not as the person dealing with the frustration of said huge behemoth .. routinely loosing said requests.
I always wanted to (but that dept was in an entirely different state) .. as the lowly little employee fielding those phone calls, I so wished I could get up from my desk, walk over to the desk where these DPOA requests were to be sent .. and shake the snot out of someone over in that dept ... "where are all these POA requests, do you get em in the mail and promptly throw em in the trash . where are they?????".
I'm going to ask him one last time today ... as the process goes .. we are to have a phone conference tomorrow with atty who .. at that time . will ascertain by phone . with some general questions . as to his mental faculties. Going to ask my dad one last time today .. "ya know K has it such that C is to come and look thru/sort the financial matters . if that's the path you're comfortable taking . as to both of your affairs . that works for me, .. do you wish to proceed, with DPOA . it's gonna be X dollars .. are you willing to pay that .. ".
If he wishes to divert to C .. and K's path to make those matters sorted and dealt with, fine by me. I don't care. If he balks at the "X" dollars it's gonna cost to exact this process, fine by me also.
Yes,.. it has dawned on me .... I don't know the honest answer to this .. I guess I wouldn't .. I don't have a ckbook to look at. Dad had given me . last year at this time when he was so sick . his acct # for that same ck'ing acct in question . to handle some things. I still have that paper .. and was able to call the bank and following their phone tree and prompts . learn the balances, etc. I don't know .. but I suspect that is a joint ck'ing acct . .and so that complicates things ... in that, .. I'll be showing up at the branch at some point DPOA in hand . and expecting access to that information . well .. may very well be that the bank would refuse on the grounds .. "This is a joint acct, .. and you would need DPOA for both parties". That could happen. Very well might happen that way.
I'm not going to have DPOA for her, . nor would I, in a million years want to be DPOA for her.
I have zero idea what will be any workaround should that be the barrier.
The LTC policy in question .. I have asked of C .. 2 or 3 x's now . since he took home to his house both LTC policies for K and for my dad (C works in insurance, and the presumption there would be, he'd be pretty adept at policy language). I've asked of him 2 or 3 x's now . as well as stepsister .. that he upload a copy of dad's and send it to me, . . mostly there's been no response. Last time, there was a response from stepsister,. ."he'll get that you, what's your email address", gave said email address, and to date, still no copy of LTC forwarded.
That too, .. I assume is gonna take some real detective work ... (so unnecessary .. can't we all just get along here, guess not) .. I mean I'm going to have to go on what my dad tells me it's with "so and so life insurance company" .. and cold call them .. DPOA in hand . and work my way thru to try to get to the person .. if that person/role even exists .. to verify for me that indeed a LTC policy exists in dad's name .. .and
as described earlier here by someone else, jump thru their rings of fire .. in all the requirements to get my hands on said policy .. and likely weeks and weeks of that process ... of people not having rec'd the required this or that, that I did indeed send .. and so forth and so on. I see it coming. Yep, sure as the day is day.
His cc acct. I have dad's wallet .. Stepsister was kind enough to give me that, when I asked for it, . if she'd retrieve that and make sure it lands in my hands . in one of her trips thru their hh there . dad's and K's. She did get it, and give it to me. That wallet contains his cc . and I've been able to call and thru that phone tree .. and prompts .. learn the balance on the cc . the due date .. the credit limit, etc. At least w/that one, it won't be a cold call .. gee Mr. Visa or Mastercard . are you the company that has my dad's cc . .at least with that one, . I do in fact have the actual cc in hand .. and so .. can at least be that far into the process to go with getting DPOA to them ..
His phone bill . he gets his phone thru the same company that provides his cable tv .. and I assumed .. since I do know his cable tv is debited from his ck'g monthly .. l assumed it to be a bundled deal . and that phone and cable both auto debit monthly from his ck'g ..
No, he tells me they wouldn't bundle it . and the phone bill comes separate in the mail .. and the cable tv . yes, does auto debit . but the phone bill . a separate bill that comes via snail mail. I do know the cable company he uses . .so that one won't be a cold call of .. "gee maybe he has his acct there, maybe not" . at least I know the company that provides his phone service.
Will he still be interested in paying that nominal amount monthly if he no longer resides there and takes the path of LTC as he has indicated a willingness to do as to his setting. I don't know .. I wouldn't .. it's not much he says .. like $30/$35 a month .. and maybe he will .. who knows. I wouldn't .. if I don't live there, . that's $30/$35 .. I'd keep in my pocket, she wants home phone/landline . let her take over the payment. But we'll see what he wants to do ... and if so, that too, at least I know the company that he deals with for that phone svc . and so will do the whole DPOA thing there ..
His h/o insurance,. .. his auto insurance .. any other insurances he might have . life .. so forth .. I have zero info on who the company would be ..
He did tell me that both his auto and h/o insurance come due annually about December of every year.
So yea in all this is gonna also be a forward at the post office, so that some of what's his .. lands here .. at my address .. for me to even know that it's out there at all.
Some of that . indeed . if joint . may present a barrier ... in the company's refusal absent a DPOA for both parties . aware of that.
No idea what to do as any workaround or maybe there isn't one.
Both he and K each have separate autos .. are they jointly titled . who knows .. does that present a barrier .. possibly.
Does he wish to keep and maintain/insure and auto he will never drive again. He shouldn't ... I wouldn't ... why pay out for an auto that you will never use again . that's just stupid. Disposal of said auto via sale . .. any possibility to do that, if jointly titled. I see problems there, .. so .. I guess he continues to pay for an auto that he won't ever use again .. stupid. Unless he can get her to agree to disposal of it . and I only see C at the helm of that process should it go that way .. she seems to trust C apparently.
A lot of unknowns .. too many. That's why I say "can't we all just get along here". But I don't guess that's gonna be the case.
On the MIL front however, .. seems whatever had fog had enveloped her for like 10 days . has moved aside ..
She's not back 100% .. but she's improved .. more. She isn't sleeping all the time, and not so out of it.
I'm surprised you were able to call and get that info readily. Or is there a special password that you knew?
I even had to provide an affidavit to someone that the DPOA had not been revoked. Another delay. They wouldn’t accept these forms by email or fax, they had to be sent by snail mail.
I think the post office would not accept the DPOA for me to do the mail forward, that’s why I did what I had to do...we’ve talked about that.
The fact that my Stepdad put me on all their accounts before he died greatly simplified things. Not my Mom, oh hell no! Nothing wrong with her...eyeroll.
Along with a few other tricks. In the beginning, I was silly enough - or naive enough - to think that being honest, polite and aboveboard was the way to go. Seriously- that was only like chumming the waters - and I was not the shark.
My favorite trick. I was on the phone with one entity or another - had honestly said who I was - DPOA, blah blah blah... and was getting stonewalled. “What do I need to do to get this information?” I say.
“Well, Mrs Rainmom - if I were able to verify things with your mother...”
I suspect the wormy little bast@rd knew I was alone in my own home. But.. FINE!!! Okay - if that’s how we’re gonna be... I say “Okay. Hang on a minute”. And, I walk the phone over to the couch, hold it at arms length and say out loud “Mom, they need to talk to you“. I then rumpled
the phone around in a couch cushion - then speak into the phone “Hello, this is Rainmom Mom - what do you need?” After that experience I just cut to the quick by saying I was my mother from the start. Of course - this may be harder for you to pull off, Dorker - your dad being a man and all. Perhaps you can practice your “man voice” while you’re waiting for the LTC policy to arrive...
Lastly - you mentioned having your brother as a co-DPOA. It may have worked for dh and SIL but probably cause your dh didn’t want to make any decisions - was happy to leave it to SIL. It also makes sense with SIL out of state. Neither is the case with you and your brother - and there is the additional issue of Bossy Boots. For a dozen reasons or more - this is a mistake. I’ll leave it with a movie quote.
“Big mistake. Big. Huge...”
~ Vivian; Pretty Woman
I am surprised that K hasn't made her way to the hospital yet. I wonder when your father intends to be in contact with her again? It really is quite unfair to her, since she's his spouse. And then of course he wants to put you in the middle of it all,
She hasn't done so.
So my dad tells it, she did call him . and her over-riding sentiment in that phone call was concern for his health and how ill he's been . and I guess she made noise she'd be coming that way in the phone call to him . and he diverted that with a "you can't come here, .. they won't let you in, Covid". She ... I guess ... maybe it had escaped her what I'd told her only mere short time prior to this dialogue with my dad ... I'd told her you can .. my dad told her you cannot .. the latter is what she "heard" adhered to.
Never occurring to her, I don't suppose, .. "let me just call there, and talk to the horse's mouth .. and find out what is the dam story here .. can I or can I not visit".
She hasn't made her way there ...
I think with her, ... it was a matter that .. my dad said they won't let her in . never dawning on her that what Dorker told her, conflicts with that .. and so .. that's the bible on it, . can't come in .. and so she hasn't tried (that I know of).
As to the DPOA . that has come to a screeching halt.
Absent any valid photo ID for dad.
My dad at one time, like most folks .. had a DL. Hasn't driven in a few years .. so who knows if his DL is even valid any longer. He seems to think it is ... still valid.
Where is it? He says . it's on that all important tv tray that sits by his favorite chair in their den. Have I had any luck at all, with going to their house to retrieve a dam thing ... nope I haven't ..
So the story goes .. I'd talked to the atty about the whole DPOA process.
They were to send me a packet via email, which they did .. and I was to get that completed . just has to do with names/addy's so forth of who will be named DPOA . as well as some b'ground info . .and things having to do with estate planning should one wish to travel that path also. 13 pages of forms that needed completing and scan and send back to atty . in advance of what was to be a 2 PM phone appt today ...
That phone appt ..for the purposes of ascertaining whether he is of sound mind and not being coerced ..
And then .. the process .. next Tuesday I think we said .. we'd all meet at the hospital .. all of us .. and stay out of the patient's room .. and only go in one at the time .. per hospital's Covid restrictions.
That would mean the atty would go in . and complete some items .. and have him sign .. and then a notary would go in and complete some items .. and so forth.
All of that hinges on, of 1 of the things it hinges on . need a valid gov't issued photo ID.
I have dad's wallet, .. I assumed .. (incorrectly) that's where his DL would be. Looked thru that yesterday to make sure .. oops . no . .there's no DL in here ...
Took that 13 pages w/me to the hospital visit yesterday and winded our way through that to fill it out. I had emailed the atty in the b'ground with some questions, 1 of which was .. "I don't have his FL DL .. or any photo ID is that going to be an issue".
Got that 13 pages of forms filled out, visiting w/my dad.
BTW .. my dad has C-diff .. or has had .. didn't know that til I left there yesterday ... Yes . there is a big sign on the door that says contact restrictions or whatever .. but that's always there when he is hospitalized . and the fact of the matter is that anyone who has ever had MRSA and he has .. a few years back . gets that lovely sign on the door, . so no I didn't gown up or anything of the sort, .. didn't know that I'd need to .. nobody told me C-diff was a part of this whole thing. He has been on antibiotic course for that, and it does seem for the time being to be waning
the whole explosive diahrea accompanying C-diff . that appears to have abated.
I didn't know this .. til after I left there ... and two days now I'd tried to get the attending physician to call me back, leaving repeated mssgs requesting same .. for two days . and no return phone call.
Here I was on my way back home . having left the hospital . and finally AP calls me back . and I went down my list of questions . one of which was, "Why is he still on an antibiotic". Answer: "We're treating his c-diff . he had c-diff".
Of course, that got a rousing "WHAT?!?!?!???! he had c-diff?" from me .. and a bunch of concern .. "I was just there, I did not know that", doc asking me, did I not see the contact restriction sign on his door .. and yes I did see that, but .. that's always a factor, he's a former MRSA victim and that always gets thrown up .. so no .. I didn't let that concern me.
Pretty furious about that .. to say the least.
I had even asked the charge nurse, who was the only medical personnel I have encountered, . "Why is he on an antibiotic" . and her answer, .. "I don't know, you can check with his physician .. they'll have to answer that".
Pretty livid . that's kinda critical that info get shared with those who visit there.
But whatever .. so I was driving home .. and talked to the doc .. and then stopped at a red light, pull up my handy dandy phone to see if atty has responded to my list of questions . one of those being . ."is it a problem I don't have my hands on a photo ID" ..
His answer to that, .... "yes as part of the notary process, .. we will need a valid gov't issued photo ID . that can be anything from a FL state ID card, . a DL . a passport, a military ID . something gov't issued ... the notary will need to see that gov't issued ID as part of the process".
Goes on to explain that in some circumstances . the workaround for that is to have two witnesses that know him to be who he says he is ... and they with valid ID as to why they say they are, .. and they cannot be related in anyway . it would have to be a former co-worker perhaps, a neighbor, pastor ... but not someone related to him in any way.. but with Covid restrictions that too presents as a barrier . in that one cannot have more than 1 visitor at the time . and that workaround requires that the two witnesses be present at the same time as the notary . and so that's not going to work either, not as we work with Covid restrictions.
So of course, ... when I got to a point I could phone my dad .. I did so .. "Hey dad, that whole 2 PM thing I told you about .. we may have to sideline that, I don't have your DL .. have to have a gov't issued photo ID . your wallet doesn't contain your DL".
Dad . mad . upset: "It's on that dam table, that tv tray that sits by the chair where I sit in our den"
(((Of course I'm thinking to myself .. that's where you think it is . that's where you maybe last saw it .. when ..???.... 3 or 4 months ago if that ... or maybe K has gathered up anything of importance, . and made sure to stash it somewhere . who the h377 knows, I sure don't . and who even knows if your DL is even valid at this point you haven't driven an auto at all, in the last few years . with all your ailments)))
At that point,.. I kinda just left the ball in his court .. I'm kinda over it with all this covert try to get things/items from his house and the stiff arm his wife throws up as impediment to that .. and so I just left the ball in his court: "Well I tell ya what, in talking with K, if you can have her dig that up and make it available, I'll be glad to go get it, otherwise the whole DPOA thing is sidelined for the moment".
Dad: "Oh boy, quite the task there, I'll have to sick the wolves on that".
Me: "yep".
Talked to my brother who is also to be a part of this whole DPOA thing . let him know we've hit a snag . him fully aware of the interference I encounter in trying
trying to get my hands on a.n.y.t.h.i.n.g. of importance from that HH ..
His words: "Well we know that C and stepsister will be back from T town on Saturday and be there . to sort thru and organize some billing matters, I say you and I both show up and elbow our way in ... and without prior announcement, *here to grab dad's DL* .. and just get it".
My answer to that: "I've put the ball in dad's court, . if he wants the whole DPOA thing to progress .. I'm doing the leg work to make it happen .. but absent that all important photo ID . the whole thing gets sidelined . .and so .. he can maybe take some initiative here".
Brother; "To be quite honest Dorker, I'm fed frickin up with stepsister and her diversions . and K . with her stone walling any request .. I'm fed up with it, .. I'm about to just elbow my way into their house and demand that's what my dad wants . and any excuses and platitudes about *oh now he shouldn't bother you with that* she can stuff that chit up her azz sideways .. I'm over it".
I didn't respond to him.
Next text from him: "I'm going to calm down some and revisit the whole issue when I've calmed down ... realization .. leading with emotion .. never the thing to do".
And that's that.
Dad has been moved as of late yesterday to Rehab . where I am assured the c-diff will continue treatment as will his bladder retention issues be followed . and any number of other medical maladies ongoing . and all coupled with the need to begin some PT, to the degree that can even be initiated at this point.
And bears mention . when I was with him yesterday I did offer up .. "now dad . up to you .. from what I understand C will be by your hh this wknd . the purpose there . he's going to organize and sort thru billing matters and such .. if you wanna just lump all this and let C take all this on . we don't have to do DPOA .. he can just take the ball and run with it, if that's what you wanna do".
Dad: "No .. I think that's fine for K, if that's how she prefers to handle her things . but I want the DPOA .. and you .. handling that".
Oookay . well figure out a way that I can get my hands on a valid photo ID . and we'll resume.
" I want the DPOA .. and you .. handling that".
Well, this is interesting....he uses the phrasing, "DPOA...and you..." Does this mean he doesn't intend the DPOA to BE YOU?
Did you tell your father how much it will cost to get the DPOA through the attorney? (Just curious -- what is the amount? Of course you don't have to answer.)
It is very bad that the hospital didn't let you know that your father has C-Diff! They don't like to let you know much, do they?
Sounds like finding the DL isn't going to happen anytime soon. If your brother wants to go there and strongarm everyone into giving it to him, let him. Otherwise, just sit tight and let the "wolves" spring into action.
I don't know who these "wolves" are that he's gonna sic on this. He didn't say. Likely, he'd like me to put on my wolf hat and go get the DL ..
The truth of the matter is that DL may very well be where he says it is . on that all important tv tray . but it can just as easily be nowhere to be found, also.
I don't have in K, .. any compliance at all. Make no mistake about it, she's sweet as sugar about it all, she's not mean and horrible . but any encounter to to get past her as gatekeeper gets a "oh now . I don't know why he bothers you with these things .. I can handle that .. now what is it he wants?". You answer the question and that meets as "oh well I'll find that, I'll go visit him and take his DL to him" ..... or whatever "X" item I'm requesting . and .. then any further attempt on my part, . "No . he said he really needs me to get my hands on "X" and I'm going that way any how . so let me just grab that and take it to him". That meets in her a "Oh .. you don't need to worry with that . you have enough on your plate to deal with .. I don't know why he bothers you with these things .. I have nothing to do here ... I'm retired .. I don't have a dam thing to do with my time .. I'll dig that up and I'll go visit him and take it to him".
This is how it goes in any encounter trying to get past her as gatekeeper to his things .. at their HH. I can at that point .. try to get more forceful and assertive and demand ... !!!!!...
I haven't done so ..
I just don't care that much. I will do that which is possible for me to achieve that he asks of me . but .. fighting past her as gatekeeper and .. for the purpose of an item I need to retrieve from there, that she may very well (sure seems so) .. want to make dam sure I don't get my hands on .. and will make sure it doesn't happen ... be forceful for what? So I arrive there and look in the couple of places it could *possibly* be .. and only to find it not there .. and she maybe has moved whatever is asked for . on purpose .. who even knows. Be forceful and assertive to what end?
If she doesn't want me *bothering* with "X" or whatever it is ... she can make dam sure that doesn't happen. And she has every right to, she's his spouse . .and I am not gonna stand in the muck and mire of their marital chit . and try to be forceful . just not gonna do it.
If brother cares to go strong arm his way into their HH with the stated goal of trying to pluck a photo ID out of their HH . go for it. She would be less apt to give him even a glass of water if he was dying of thirst .. she despises him. But that's immaterial to me.
At least with me .. (she despises my brother) .. at least with me .. she is two faced enough to wanna make me believe she doesn't have a problem with me (her actions speak otherwise however).
DPOA costs $600
I ran that past my dad also .. and with the notion if he doesn't wanna pay for it, . there's your answer Dorker, drop it .. and don't push it . this is his biz . his affairs .. he has failed to address . and his notion, at least initially . that I go pull a POA down from the internet and fill it out, .. a notion I wasn't willing to do, if he balks at that ... then so be it .. his biz/his affairs.
He didn't .. he had no problem with it.
And as to my brother as co-DPOA ... that is my assertion . not so much his. He has said this about it: "I think putting your brother on anything
having your brother listed, is going to cause a whole bunch of consternation coming from K . she and her problems with him"
To my response to my dad: "That's not negotiable dad .. if you want me DPOA he comes as part of that package .. I may want his assistance along the way with some things . and that can't happen unless he is part of that DPOA pkg .. and whether or not she gets upset, . she's gonna be upset no matter what, .. doesn't matter if you name the Pope himself DPOA it's gonna upset her, so I'm not letting that hinder me, but my brother .. .he needs to be part of it too".
He didn't balk.
And as a side note .. been interesting dealing with my brother. Last year at this time .. I didn't get to my brother without getting past his gatekeeper BB ... and it infuriated me, trying to deal with her . to just impart info to my brother and/or ask a question of my brother . that I then would find myself sorting thru ancient history as to all this saga .. to bring BB up to speed on things I neither had the patience or tolerance for at the time . my thinking .. along the lines of . as regards her .. "gee, ya know . it's not your fault you haven't been here for the 50 plus years all this has gone on . I get that, but I don't have the inclination or patience at this point . to bring you up to speed and spell out and draw you a picture of what has transpired over 50 years .. plus . and so .. can I just speak to my brother or can ya just relay what I'm saying without asking me a bunch of nonsense questions that aren't germane to all that's going on". It was maddening.
This time .. BB is nowhere to be heard from.
Maybe BB got fed up with the sordid mess all this is and turned and washed her hands of it all, . not wanting a dam thing to do with it . or maybe she got the memo that her incessant immaterial questions are an annoyance to a supreme level . who knows.
But I haven't talked to her, not once in any of this. If I need to impart info to my brother or ask a question of him .. I call his cell phone or his work phone (during work hours) and he always answers .. or .. if not . calls me right back, he does . not her.
My brother was somewhat insistent . upon my plans to depart for my wknd trip and handing him the baton to handle it all, . that his wife's # be included as contact info .. as he put it,"I'm not always as available as she is .. sometimes .. if you can't get me, you can always get her, and she can get word to me".
Fine by me .. you want them to talk to her, . give em her # .. (and he had done so, in fact, it kinda annoyed me when I found that was the # they had for him . her cell phone #) .. and I corrected that with staff there, "oh that's BB's # . let me give you HIS contact #'s", .. and nurse noted those. My brother then correcting me . that he's not always as available as BB might be, . they need her # .. if they can't get him, they can always reach her, and she can pass word to him .. and my responding to him "they have her #, . that's the one they had .. ".
What he did w/that is immaterial to me ..
As long as I don't have to go past her as gatekeeper and I haven't had to.
It's been nice.
Just as one example this time last year . when there was a lung cancer dx ... and her assertion in talking to me on the phone .. at that time .. I don't know for what specific reason I'd reached out to try to contact my brother, likely to share what this or that doc had to say about "X" issue . and found her, as gatekeeper and her .. "Well if I were you . while that HH is empty I'd go into that HH and find every pack of cigs I could and throw em out .. I hope he knows he can't smoke anymore".
To my responding to that: "Yea . well I wouldn't even know where he keeps cigs in that HH .. and to be honest . he has enough $ .. he can have a semi pull up with pallets of cigs .. within days .. and so .. whether or not he stops smoking . kinda is gonna be up to him"
As for joint property - which is very hairy in this case, and I would agree with others that DPOA goes to attorney and you retain HCPOA - your history with K is enough to make dealing with anything financial a nightmare. And the financial stuff is a colossal amount of work and back and forth, as previously stated. And that is without a demented spouse - who hasn’t been diagnosed - fighting you every step of the way. Most places will defer to K. You can’t really have free access to the house and his files. You absolutely despise dealing with the woman at all. It completely stresses you out... understandably, I felt the same with my stepmonster... it would have been nearly impossible to untangle all of those years of misery and bad behavior from the bad behavior of dementia. What I am saying is that it might be a via media for you to keep the Health care stuff in your purview and tell your dad the following...
“Sorry, daddio, this may have seemed like a good idea a year ago, but now that the rubber is hitting the road, the reality of my role in this has become much more clear. The fact is that we have seen that I get zero cooperation from K, even on very small things like paying a bill or collecting one of your possessions. I can’t get in the house and frankly, Dad, it is her house. You have set things up this way. She has no diagnosis, so I have no real standing. Even WITH a DPOA, it isn’t a magic wand.
I don’t have the wherewithal to continuously fight that battle - I have other responsibilities - especially when you have a very competent attorney and accountant that can work as a team through that mess. They can be objective AND they will know how to handle the intermingling of you and K in an appropriate and legal manner. They can keep all of the documentation/financial/legal matters handled. If you want them to consult with me, I am happy to help you provide them with direction. Let’s get that set up and split up those duties.”
I hate to say it, but he is going to keep saying that he wants you, he trusts you, you are the one with a head on your shoulders. To someone whose father wasn’t present, those words are like crack. And he knows they are. I sympathize with how hard it is to say no, but remember, the word no never has to come up. Just keep redirecting with “this is what I can do to help you.” Over and over again.
By splitting the POAs between you and the attorney, you can still be there for him while removing the most stress-inducing aspects of this. You totally still have his back, but in a REASONABLE and REALISTIC manner. He wants you to play fairy godmother and take his problems away because he is old and sick and overwhelmed. Your heart wants to help for those same reasons. Dividing the POA responsibilities is a good way to feed what is healthy in your relationship and squelch what is destructive and unhealthy.
Not to mention relieving you of a huge amount of work. I have more experience than most in POA responsibilities and am still overwhelmed with what needs to be done for my siblings. The paperwork is a total PITA. And there is ALOT of it. Add a completely illogical spouse to the mix... no way would I take that on when your dad has resources.
I am seriously considering having an attorney handle that end when we get older rather than giving the responsibility to our kids.
*****He has stopped smoking****
But she goes on: "Well when I married your brother I made him quit smoking .. I saw he had a pack hid in his dresser drawer and I told him . that's it . you wanna be part of this marriage . I will not tolerate smoking . and I threw em out, . he knows ... that's a deal breaker here .. he saw that".
I had probably just called there to simply share with "X" doc said about "X" issue and ran headlong into that as dialogue.
My then answering that; "Yea you don't know my dad too well do ya . you might be able to get my brother by the nose with that notion . by that's not gonna fly with our dad .. first off . like I said, . he can have a semi tractor trailer pull up to his house w/pallets of cigarettes the next day . and it's not likely K will throw him out on his ear . .she's known he was a smoker all his life . hated it . b*&ched about it to the high heavens . but it hasn't stopped him .. and . to be honest BB .. at this point . it's kinda a mute point . the man is 80 yo . and a lifelong smoker . and so . if he quits grand . but if he doesn't .. I don't know that it's gonna make that much difference".
BB: "well I wouldn't put up with it, no way in h377 ... I'd be telling him he can pack his chit and get out .. I'll be damed if I'd be taking care of someone who is now gonna be on chemo for lung cancer, all while they sit and smoke a cigarette . I wouldn't do it".
Me, annoyed that I'm tired . taxed .. and . having to go down this road to nowhere with her.
That's just one example of so many in having had to deal with her, in the past. This time . she's nowhere to be found or heard from. And that's okay with me.
My feeling . she's entitled to her opinions . absolutely she is .. but take em up with your husband ... you two talk about strategies to deploy to make him not smoke . you two figure a way into his house to rifle thru all his drawers and cabinets there, and find every stick of every cig and throw em out , .. and block the d/w from any semi tractor trailer delivering more .. you two figure that out .. don't bother me .. I'm tired/taxed .. and I happen to know . you won't rule the guy . his own wife wouldn't be able to and she lives there . so all this is just .. a drain on any time and emotion, take it up with your husband tout it all with him, not me.
That was just one example of so many.
Is it your intent to have your brother have to sign off on every decision you would make as DPOA (and vice-versa), or is it to be a DPOA where either of you can make decisions independently? The latter is the kind my mother put into place. She'd had a POA where all four of us siblings were on it and could make decisions independently of the others, just as the HCPOA was. But then she went and had it changed so that only two of my brothers were POA, and one brother and I were cut out of it entirely. Either of those two POA brothers could make decisions independently of the other one. I know that can cause problems in some families, but only one of those two POA brothers was going to handle things, and we all trusted him.
I think most on this site would implore you to just sit back and let your father handle getting the DL. If it's that important to him (and maybe it really isn't), he could contact K and have her bring it to him.
As he likes to put everything off, I bet he makes no further move to get that DPOA. I'm glad for your sake, as I really think it is a task that you will at some point regret taking on.
That's what DH and SIL have with regard to their mom. And . yea someone mentioned earlier they found it easier to just call and pretend to be mom .. and that's mostly .. hand down . in huge measure what SIL has opted to do .. rather than deploy a POA. She does that, .. probably 90% of the time .. and it's worked much better/easier than using the POA.
I wouldn't be able to do that, ... unless I get really good at sounding male .. and not female.
But maybe my brother would be able to pull it off, depending on the situation.
But as things stand at present . .we are stuck . on the sidelines with no photo ID . and .. the last I knew .. I gave it to my dad, "give me some way to get that all important photo ID and we'll resume this whole thing".
My brother texted me this morning .. I dunno . some website whereby he thinks he can go online to get DMV info .
I kinda doubt it, . privacy issues being what they are ... I think that'll be a road that leads to nowhere . but go for it .. left that at a response of "sounds good, let me know if it proves useful".
And didn't offer to do so myself.
I thought briefly about reaching out to stepsister who I know will be in town this wknd with C (her husband) for them to sort thru billing matters .. "gee stepsister, seems I need to get my hands on dad's DL .. would you see if you can locate that for me".
But as it stands right now, I've stood down on doing so. I've asked them for the upload of the LTC policy and that has yet to surface ... have asked 3 or 4 x's . and still haven't gotten it.
The ckbook I asked her for, last time she was in town . was "supposedly" not there .. unable to be located ...
On the one hand you have dad who gets frustrated .. "Well it was right there on that tv tray .. that's where I keep it, it's right there, the ckbook and bound with some bills, tied up with a rubber hand . it's either on that table, or on the floor by the chair where I sit".
I share that with stepsister, who claims it's not there (the ckbook) .. maybe it isn't ... maybe he doesn't remember accurately where he last left it . or maybe K has moved it .. who the h377 knows .. I sure don't.
He claims that all important DL (truthfully though, is the thing even a valid DL at this point, the man hasn't driven an auto in 3 years that I know of) ...
He claims it too to be on that all important tv tray by his chair .. is it there? Who the h377 knows.
Do I want to hit another brick wall of asking stepsister .. "hey you and your DH will be in town this wknd, . see if you can locate his DL".
I dunno . just undecided .. if I even wanna continue to fight this uphill battle that could be .. were some folks cooperative . namely stepmom .. could be SO MUCH EASIER ....
I think, at least for this moment, . the better approach is to put it back in dad's court ... 'give me some way to get my hands on that, and we'll resume the whole process".
If brother wants to storm the place over the wknd . thinking he's gonna surface with that all important DL .. have at it ..
As I said of K though . she wouldn't pee on him to put out the fire if he was on fire .. she loathes my brother. He stands about as much chance of a warm hello there, as the boogie man.
At least with me, she feigns that I'm not detested . not so with him.
Dorker, what do you think? You have HCPOA and the attorney gets DPOA.
Why don't you insist on this? HopeFloats has given you wonderful wording to use with your father. Why would you make things so extremely difficult for yourself by agreeing to be the DPOA? I don't understand this at all.
I suspect the ball will get dropped ... til some other crises that he wishes me to handle . and I can't . hands tied behind my back with all this chit.
It's at that point ... who knows when that occurs .. at the juncture that he moves from Rehab to LTC which is on up the road .. who knows .. but we get to that juncture and there's been no actionable way to get that photo ID ...
He will be told at that point, .. "Dad seeing as how this has the markers of being so contentious .. I'll do the HCPOA . and advocate on health matters, . and you let the atty's be your DPOA .. I am not gonna fight city hall in your wife .. she's gonna make dam sure my life is h377 . and I have enough responsibilities absent any of this mess"
Kinda in his court at this point. I suspect that photo ID and anything else that if the "wolves" will go fight for it .. it'll get resolved, otherwise, it gets *kick the can down the road* treatment.
The later will be the case.
I haven't even called anyone today .. maybe a break of sorts .. I dunno .. I haven't ck'd with stepsister .. .on any important matters, medical staff, .. dad .. no one. I've just ducked ..
I left that matter in dad's court in talking to him yesterday evening and haven't heard another word. Other than from brother who thinks there's some website he'll be able to pluck that DMV info from. I think he's going down a road that leads to nowhere, but knock yourself out brother.