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the kindness that you show is wonderful.
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sonny7 - I assume this is yet another dig at me here?

OK I'll bite. Tell me what you would do here in this situation....

You're teenage son has Apergers. Hes smashed the house up again. Your wife is having a bad spell of Fibromyalgia, she can hardly walk. Shes off work with no pay. You're 6 year old is fine but a handful. You've got to upset your client (again no pay for me) because you've got to take time off for childcare.

Oh and did I say that twice now you've had to bail from work early because you're teenage son has put his mother in hospital. (yes the same mother who can't walk some days anyway!) Oops just a small thing....

You go and see Dad whenever you can at the weekend. He moans when you take you're daughter because "she gets in the way". He feigns illness, fabricates things, plays the martyr, lies all the time. You KNOW what hes doing?

Am I not allowed to say "Whoa hang on Dad this is not on?"

Of course, I could disown my children, divorce my wife, quit my job, and move in with Dad.... Hmmmm you think I should do that? I am really interested in what you would do though.
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See my other thread about Dads operation decision (thought best to keep this seperate).

Jeez he has no limits. Hes already using this as part of his scam. Apparently, "I'll have to visit this weekend because he wants to discuss it with him".....

And true to form, his cousin (Who took him to hospital appt) has weighed in with an opinion. Apparently, his boys (i.e me an brother) need to step up and look after him so he can have his operation....

This is the guy who did this - dad was away with his cousin, fell over ended up in hospital with stitches and concussion. Of course, they wanted someone to stay the night with him. So he stayed at cousins house. 9am next morning his cousin is ringing me "I only agreed one night, can you collect him I've got things to do. He can't stay longer".
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At his age, he best NOT save up for college! Sheesh!
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Hi paul sorry your having such a stressful week. Id ignore cousin's 2 cents. He doesnt getva say. Let it go in one ear & out the other. He doesnt have to deal with anything. Id tell him any time he wants to take dad on permanently go for it.

Id think the more pressing issue is a violent child. That can be a real danger to everyone. Here is a link might help. You gotta get a handle on that first.

http://www.autism-help.org/behavior-out-of-control.htm

As for dad hes upping the anti to regain control over you, bc your implementing new strategies.
If he continues go radio sinlence. You have enuff to worry about without him demanding. You have all the control, you just dont know it. He has you trained with guilt. That is a hard thing to erase.

If you say NO the worldvwont end, he can sulk but hell go and do something else. If freezer is bare oh well. He can order a pizza. He wont starve. If he doesnt see you he will live just fine. Hell go watch tv.
You need to implement the hang up on him. He will learn. Or he can call brother. Tell him you cant deal with his problems now, your hanging up. Hell just call brother.
You have to work on your guilt. Remember your dad is doing just fine with the food he's got.
If dad starts complaining your hanging up and do it. No more calls for that day. Your done.
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Paul - just ignore sonny's jabs. I doubt sonny is being pulled in 10 different directions like you are, so he doesn't understand the stress or priority.
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polar - yes I should do I know. Its just thats what I get from family - easy to criticise when you don't know the full story.
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Jasmina - he constantly amazes me with the lengths he will stoop to honestly.
Hes beginning to twig as you say that I'm pushing back and trying new things.

To be honest, its making more determined. All hes doing is proving to me even more that he does not give a rats a@se about me.

I honestly believe he does not at this moment -Im there for him and thats it as far as he thinks. The more he treats me badly the less guilty I feel about not doing what he wants....

Yes we're getting all sorts of help with son. Seeing family counsellor for another session today as it happens (2 hours out of me work day today so late home tonight)....

Im sure you can understand why my head almost explodes when dad says he needs my help and my family will have to understand and make allowances.
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paulfoel123 re sonny7:

You said: "OK I'll bite."

This is what you need NOT to do. Bets on whether sonny7 will be just like your dad when he's old!!!! IGNORE him. He only lays guilt (he's been in other threads, chiding those of us who chose to place LOs in a facility), he doesn't provide any USEFUL comments or suggestions. He doesn't need any additional info about you or any of us and wouldn't process it to feel empathy for any of us either (consider him dad #2. One is bad enough to deal with, so skip over this clown's comments.)

"The more he treats me badly the less guilty I feel about not doing what he wants." No guilt. In an ideal world we can be Superman or a god and do everything. It is not an ideal world. We cannot do everything and it doesn't do anyone any good to try.

Your refusal to play is upping dad's game? Shields up Mr Chekov! Do NOT respond, do not fire torpedoes or phasers, even on stun... End communication Uhura!
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You really have your hands full! I honestly dont know how you do it.

Im glad your getting help for your child. The child cannot run the household even if they have challenges. I hope the therapy is helping. Im sure you have resources in your neck of the woods to help with diciplinary issues for those with aspergers.

As for dad maybe you need to hire help. Dad might be mr wonderful to a stranger. My narc mom was. She could turn on the charm like a seasoned broadway performer.
You can deligate things like shopping or an excursion outetc. If dad has a melt down, oh well guess you wont eat this week. I cant be everywhere at once. I have family issues that need to be dealt with. Dont go into detail. Youll never win. Say it is personal. Too much happening I cant get to it. You can only do so much in 24hrs. Your job and family life shouldnt have to suffer bc he is demanding this or that.
Or deligate it back to brother who lives 5 mins away.
If dad cont to demand rell him hevwill be limited to 1 ph call a week check in. Tell him it is too much stress. Your done with it. Good luck
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Cheers disgustedtoo! Yeh gonna ignore sonny from now on - I've seen threads too...
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jasmina- its challenging with our son thats for sure. Yes I've got a lot going on but the thing is, I don't mind helping Dad and fitting it all in. Its when he wants to be number 1 and comes up with silly demands that it annoys me.

You're right he can turn on the charm and come across as a sweet helpless old man which is why I get it in the neck from family because its a case of "oh poor thing his son won't help".

I've given up trying to explain now. He knows the score with my family BUT still he says "they have to understand I have to put him (dad) first". Crazy or what?

Brother is a nightmare. His new wife doesn't work. Not hard for her to drive the 1 mile to see Dad in the week which she does and Dad thinks shes florence nightingale (my wife is lucifer btw). Brother than pops up saturday am for an hour. No kids to look after (that he bother with anyway) so easy peasy..... Of course then he says I'm not pulling my weight - jeez!
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I remember those "we have to talk" conversations. He would call me and say he needed to talk to me. I'd say ok, talk.....and he 'd say....no you have to come here. I could never understand why he wouldn't just tell me over the phone. I'd finally manage to get there and ask what was so important and he would say "never mind". Later in the week we would repeat this entire conversation. I would point out to him that he wasted my time coming over to talk and he had nothing to say. He would tell me now he does have something to discuss. And a few days later I would get there and he would say 'never mind'. The whole point is that they want you to go out of your way for them. They want to know that you would horribly inconvenience yourself for them because they are so important. That is what he wants most of all. But you already know that.
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lkdrymom - yep. I've always thought that with Dad. He likes being able to get people to do what he wants. Im the same - I sometimes think "why on earth are you pushing this thing for no reason?"

It seems to make him happy knowing that he can click his fingers and people do what he wants them to.

Im sure I mentioned the "wheelchair incident". I'd left it in my car - he had to have it back for the friday or he couldnt go out (his friend was going to push him). Thursday - Up at 4am or something in the office (on call) so 11am I call him - do you REALLY need that wheelchair because its a BAD time" YES. So I drive 90 mins round trip.

Asked him few days later. "No I didnt like to ask x after to push me". I was NOT impressed. But he was happy because he'd made me do it.
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Paul, have you read anything about Narcissistic Personality Disorder?
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BarbBrooklyn - you're not the first to suggest this. Yes I have.... I think Dad is a lot like this unfortunately.
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Talk about horribly inconveniencing yourself - Ikdrymom. My mother waited so long to make any decision on where she would live into old age that I had to leave my home and state and family (Oh, no, I didn't have a life - insert Yea, right) and move in with her where she was '"so glad that she stayed in her own home" 500 miles away! Inconvenient much?!!
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I'm not sure about NP disorder, but it could be that our elderly LOs were somehow changed by the 'depression era' (many lived through that very insecure time). Also, many families were damaged by wartime in the late 1930s-40s. My mother should definitely have gotten mental help early in life, but didn't. Instead, she plagued our family with anxiety, isolation, lack of bonding, & bursts of rage. It causes me grief to look back on those years, but I presume she didn't intentionally harm us. She was difficult & miserable unto the very end of her life, but I never knew what caused her torment. Finally at rest.
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Paul if he does that ---"we have to talk" crap. Tell him hes got 20 secs to tell you over the phone or forget it. Period.

You have a busy life and have to move on. He can tell you right then or it can wait. Have a nice day, gotta go.
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Got to admit I know I'm not the best with dealing with him and I do let it get to me but I'm on my last nerve at the moment. Its making me ill now. Its a constant battle with him. I dream of living in another country and not having to deal with him. I have nightmares about him having a long drawn out illness where he expects constant attention.

I visited him last night. I've not spoken to consultant yet but hes told the consultant "Its ok because my sons live very close so they'll come every day to look after me". What? I live 30 mins away and I can't remember offering this? No way Jose.....

So I looked at him. He looks at me "Yes but you will? won't you? won't you?" I lost it and said "look dad I'm doing what I can now, I can do no more. I've had it now".

5 minutes later. "So are you doing my shopping this weekend?" NOOOOOO!!!!!

Theres a reason you have a freezer that I filled with food last weekend. I said NO I'M BUSY - so then he wants to know why, what are you doing, can't you spare an hour or two etc etc. I refused to say - he didn't like it. Can't you come up after work? NO I've got child care. Can't x (wife) take time off to do that? (Im going to explode again).

So I've told him home delivery or nothing..... Small victory here.

I'm going to Glastonbury next weekend. I hadn't reminded him - but hes seen it on TV and remembered (hence the hassling me this weekend!). So he pipes up, "so are you going?" Yes you know I am. "Aw OK then, yes I don't mind you going, you need a rest"

At the point, before I throttled him, I said "gotta go ring you the weekend." What? I need your permission to take some time for myself and my family....

I can see this all coming to a head. He wants me to live my life one way and I don't want that. I can honestly say I dread every contact with him these days.....
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llama - no way 500 miles away! And you left your own family.....

I sometimes think if I said "dad im getting divorced, can I come and live with you" he'd be overjoyed. Even then though he'd probably say "what do you want to see those kids for now, you're divorced, not your problem any more".
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Paul; in 1965 (I was 12), my grandmother broke her hip. While she was in the hospital having surgery, she grandly told all her friends "I'll be an invalid now and my daughters will wait on me". (!!!!)

My mother, who had a two year old at home in addition to me and my brother, and my dad who travelled frequently for work, said to her mom, "Nope mom, no way are you going to be an invalid; you are going to rehab to learn to walk again".

My grandmother was appalled. APPALLED that her daughters (her other daughter, my aunt worked full time and also had 3 kids) would send her to "that kind of place" to be "among strangers".

Rehab, as we all know, is grueling. According to my mom, who visited once a week, her mother cried, begged, pleaded, threatened for the several weeks that she was there. On some level, I don't think grandma ever forgave my mother for sending her to rehab.

You know what? My grandmother's anger didn't hurt anyone. Her occasional pouting, silences, etc., caused tension, but no one suffered any real damage (well, us kids, but that's another story--having a bed-ridden grandma, instead of one with a walker would have been MUCH worse).

So you could say that I learned to say "no" to my parents at my mother's knee; it was a valuable lesson in how to be my own person and make my own decisions.

You need to get word to the consultant that NO, you will not be around to help. You need to tell dad, calmly, "no dad, there's no way I can do that. No, I just can't. It's not your business why I can't. I have my own life and being a full time carer for you isn't something that I can manage, no matter what. That's just the way it is. I'm sorry you feel that way, Dad. I'll talk to you soon."

Why do you need to explode? He probably enjoys that. Don't give him the satisfaction. Just say "no". Early and often.
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Dear Paul, here is a suggestion followed by the reasons: Go and find your mother.

Reasons: you have come a very long way since you first started posting. However it seems that things may get even worse as you try to stand up against your awful father. Your wife has walked away from him (and good for her), but she hasn’t given you an ultimatum (she probably doesn’t have the energy). Your brother is getting to be as bad as your father. Your cousins, doctors, Uncle Tom Cobbly etc etc, prefer to swallow the ‘poor old man’ line or else walk away, rather than confront a narcissist (and who can blame them). The site helps, but no-one actually has your back.

You may or may not find that you like your mother. However she is likely to tell you why she opted out, and it won’t be flattering about Dad. It may well give you the push you need to accept what you need to do, and stop feeling guilty about it. You then have a choice about whether to tell your father what she says. If you do, of course sparks will fly. However it may be the push that gets him to realise that he has come to the end of the line in his appalling behaviour. After all, she walked, and you might take after her.

This would be cheaper and quicker than counselling, and might even work better. Just an idea to chew over. Yours, Margaret
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Nothing is going to change him.  Stop staying till you are ready to explode.
I tried to visit Grandpa after Grandma entered nursing home.  He got so argumentative about 'kids today' that I left in tears.  I told Mum. She didn't explain anything about his mental illness, bad childhood, etc.  She just said, "If he makes you feel that badly, don't visit." 

Now I am sorry to say, but I will say it anyway, that your Dad's conversations sound just like Archie Bunker on an American tv show back in the late 60's or 70's.  I can picture Archie saying the same things, and it makes me giggle.
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Paul please watch some narc vis on youtube. Maybe you can listen whilst commuting or whenever. They will give you more tools. You shouldnt get worked up over this. Youll end up in hosp.

He's been at this his whole life. Hes very good at this game. Hes got you totally programmed with guilt.
If he bothers you that much block his call for 24hrs. Or 48. You are his son, not his personal slave.

Watch "How To Lay Boundaries With A Narcissist By Detaching" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/Ge0bPiahtmU
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Sorry not had chance to read all the comments. Today I've been out since 8am this morning got home at 7pm 6 year olds have busy lives!!! Wife has been in work and son has been off again today so a lot going on today.

So I phone Dad at 7-05pm. I've just got in. Once again, all I get is "where've you been all day, I've been stuck in with no-one coming to see me". "thought you'd have found some time to visit me" and, then (proving he knows damn well what I'd told him) "couldn't you take your daughter another week"

He KNEW full well I was busy I'd told him but he still has to have a go.

Today I just let it wash over me and ignored it. Too tired. In a way, its getting so obvious with his awful selfish behaviour I don't feel guilty any more.

He even upped it again when he saw no result. "I've been feeling really dizzy I nearly fell over earlier". I KNOW whats going on here. I can predict a "fall" next week. He knows I'm going to Glastonbury next week with wife and daughter and hes not happy with it. (Apparently, I'm moaning I've got no time but I'm swanning off for the weekend).

I reckon about Tuesday evening or early wednesday morning. Just enough to screw up my trip.There is NO WAY I am going for it this time.... I am NOT cancelling. I've seen it too many times with him - don't get your own way so use the ultimate killer attach - "I'm in hospital!"
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Well Paul if he is in the hospital at least you know he cared for. Go and enjoy the time with your family.
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"I'm in hospital!" Ok, good, they are well-equipped to take care of you.
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Paul: "Where have you been all day?" Wow - that's rich. You have a life!
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Paul - to add on to the comment from disgustedtoo, tell him, once in the hospital, you think it's a good idea to talk to social workers (or whatever title used in UK) about his needs, and whether they think he should continue to live alone, or it's better for him to live in an assisted living facility. If that's the case, the social worker can help make the arrangement.

This serves two purposes. First, if he doesn't want to deal with a social worker doing any kind of needs assessment on him, then he may not want to purposely fall just to get into the hospital for fear the SW might try to place him in an AL. Second, you get him to think about AL and how that might be in his future. As he declines further physically and mentally, he won't be able to live alone.

Have fun in Glastonbury. Put the phone on mute or block dad's and brother's numbers for the weekend. What is there to do in Glastonbury?
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