It's been a hard week....

Beatty - Yes he'd love a home. He LOVES people fussing over him. If he was in a home I could imagine him REALLY taking advantage - he'd have them running around like idiots. Then he'd be oblivious as to what he was doing.

Sort of tried the calendar thing. It goes in one ear and out the other. His attitude seems to be "not my problem, you need to find time", or "well cancel those things". Or more annoyingly "get your wife to do it".

The betting shop is a prime example. I told him a week ago I can't come over on Saturdays because I take daughter to gymastics, wife works a lot of Saturdays, and, in any case, the one huge problem is they don't let 6 year olds in betting shops and I can't leave her home!

So what do I get this week? Brothers away can you come over Saturday and put the bets on for me? I could scream sometimes....

Hes got a HUGE thing about my wife at the moment. We've argued about this many times. I've told him to butt out of it - its not her responsibility to do anything for him. BUT, he still wont accept it. (This is not helped by Florence Nightingale (brothers wife) who shows up and acts like a saint when it suits her - then bails for weeks on end).

Yes I like that saying. Im an IT Consultant so use that in my professional life!
Another good one - "Not my circus not my monkeys"

disgusted - BTW he caved. Hes phoned me. Agreed to let me put the bets on for him online. Its a victory I think.

It'll take me 5 mins to do the bets for him. So no scam to get me to visit on a Saturday now.

Brother apparently though has had a dig in my absence. Saying " all well and good doing it online but would it hurt him to visit?". Hmm hang on I thought the issue here was the bet - isnt that issue resolved?

Don't be disingenuous, Paul. You know perfectly well that the bet had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

I'm also far from convinced that placing the bet online is the answer. The benefit of the bet to your father is his opportunity for socialisation (if you'd call it that) with his fellow punters in the betting shop - he's not in it for the money, is he, unless he's a marvellous connoisseur of form? The spending of actual money is a side effect of the activity, it's not the aim.

CM - He never goes into the betting shop himself any more. He gets brother to walk down usually.

He does enjoy watching the TV thinking he could win a pound. All well and good of course, but hes not willing to get off his backside and do it himself.

Of course, I know, the other things he gets out of it are 1) Me to visit and 2) a warm glow that hes got someone doing something for him.

How it gets elevated to "need" status in his head I'll never know. It seems to be stuck in his head at "if my sons loved me they'd do this one thing for me".

I'm at the stage where I've stopped doing these "one things" because these "one things" are usually how he wants it with an easier way to do it.

I know I've won the "betting shop saturday am" battle. Its a stalemate in the "sunday visit I need food" battle at the moment. Im sure he'll think of another reason for a necessary visit soon.

Paul, it is very very obvious that your father is lonely. He is a pain in the neck, but his wish to rule your world is about getting him company and a feeling that he is important.

He really really needs to be somewhere where he gets company and people to care for him. Could you please stop reacting to him, and work on a strategy to get him into care? You won’t persuade him, you have to force it. Do you have any ideas at all about how to do this? Complaining to your wife and brother achieves nothing, but have you asked them for ideas about how to force it? Or his doctor? Or a counsellor? Standing up for yourself is good, but he is going to get more miserable as well as worse behaved. How do you get to be the one that makes the decisions? Please try thinking about it from that angle.

Based on previous comments from paul, my take on some recent comments are:

1) Unless things are different in the UK (not likely), there is no way paul is going to force his father into any kind of facility or into accepting help. He is considered competent and is adamant he will not move into a "home." Even with DPOA here in the US we can't force someone to move or let help come in if they refuse. Staff at mom's MC place told me they can't even force those with dementia to do what they refuse to do. They do have to get creative and coax them into accepting medication, bathing, medical attention, etc. Even those with dementia have "rights." Paul's dad is competent, so it is even more true for him. You can't force either moving or accepting hired help, and there's no way to be "cagey" about it. He refuses to have anyone come in (one complaint was they wouldn't stick to his time, but that just seems to be an excuse to dismiss them and force his sons to comply instead.) So having him move or accept outside help are dead issues. No sense in beating a dead horse here.

2) Since he can AND does get out with friends, I don't see him as lonely. I do agree with one statement from Margaret - this is all about feeling important. He makes excuses for not being able to go handle something (getting out for groceries, betting, etc.), for not accepting anyone to come in, or to have deliveries, for needing help, just to be in control. Perhaps there is a wee bit of loneliness in wanting his sons to be there all the time, but that is a different issue. If he weren't such a whiny demanding old coot, perhaps his sons would want to visit more often. Bowing to his demands isn't going to solve that issue.

The battle over placing bets was a small victory - we'll see how long that lasts. Beatty has a good set up. The only difference would be to skip the calendar (he's already tried that) AND leaving out ANY comment about WHY you can't do whatever it is he is asking (another reason to skip the calendar - it offers ammunition.)

You are still setting yourself up by mentioning the wife's working schedule, your job and the daughter's activities. Don't answer calls, check voicemail. If you do answer or return a call, a simple "No, sorry I can't do that at this time", with NO EXPLANATION OFFERED. He doesn't need to know why and shouldn't be told why because he then uses that to attack those reasons and to tell you to change what you or they do. You need to work on that. No.Can.Do.

Pick a day or two each month that you know you can/want to stop in for anything that *really* needs to be done, then TELL him what day that will be and stipulate whatever needs to be done will be done on that day. He should make a list. Anything else will have to wait until your next visit. He doesn't like it, too bad. If he makes a list too long for the time you have available, pick what is most important from the list and tackle those. The other items will have to wait until the next visit OR he will have to resort to his other son or accept having delivery or repair service. YOU give him the choices and he will have to chose wisely or do without.

As for emergencies - if it is truly an emergency, why would one want to wait for 30 minutes or more to get help? There are emergency services for a reason - he can use them. If it can wait 30 minutes, it isn't an emergency.

Disgusted: Yeah agree my calender idea is too meek for him - I like your style better. No reason - no ammo.

No Can Do.

Now I have that old Hall & Oates song in my head: I Can't Go For That (No Can Do)" LOL

Paul: Do tell - was the betting shop open today?

Margaret: I think you really hit the spot with the reasons for the Dad's behaviour.

But what Disgusted said about control may be key too & as we know, controlers do not go meekly into AL!

No Paul cannot force his Dad into doing anything BUT he can stop helping - as a short term strategy to get a better direction going.

Advise him (of the drawbacks of his current lifestyle on ALl of them & that it's time to reassess). Then warn him (that he will no longer offer so much time & help - because it's not really helping him). Offer alternatives. Lastly, stop helping.

An united front with the brother would accomplish this way faster.

It depends on the goal. Is it AL or accept more services to stay at home?

Or simply, to stop bossing Paul's life around? If so, fight fire with fire??

Yes of course I understand the legal difficulties of forcing Paul’s father to do anything against his will, even when it is blindingly obvious that he will do better with company and care. The point is that Paul has focussed on his father’s unreasonable behaviour, with the goal of getting Dad to understand how difficult he is being and getting him to change. That strategy hasn’t worked and probably won’t ever work. I am suggesting that Paul changes the goal, makes the goal to get his father into care, and starts working on strategies to that end.

Yes there are strategies. They include making life very uncomfortable for Dad at home, getting him into rehab/ care after a release from hospital, arranging with brother for them both to be away from home at the same time, tricking Dad into a visit to the senior citizens centre and picking him up at the end of the session (Q - would Dad get a taxi in those circumstances?), or just dropping him off there at the end of a shopping trip. And repeat it. There are going to be other options as well – I keep suggesting emigration, but there is no need to go that far! I am sure that the first reaction to changing the goal and the strategies is ‘yes but’, with a lot of reasons why it won’t work. However there has been no concerted effort to make anything like this happen. Instead Paul just tries and tries and tries to say ‘no’ to the requests. Paul is around 50, intelligent and a self-employed consultant with a successful business. There is no reason for him to be a spineless wonder.

Oh Margaret I wish I found you 21 months ago!!!!

Paul, the gauntlet has been thrown down - are you up for the challenge?

We are with you Mate!

I just have to pick up on this little bit:

"2) a warm glow that hes got someone doing something for him."

Yeah, you can see it as his going "teeheehee fooled ya!" when he's manipulated someone into taking on a task that he could do for himself, or differently.

Or, but, to look at it another way, 2) = evidence that somebody cares. That's not such an unreasonable thing for anyone to want. Don't we all like to know we're not on our own?

The problems arise in your difference of opinion about what you should be doing for your father, who you DO care about. Spend less time arguing about, and resenting, his sillier demands/requests and you'll have more time and patience for the bits that are actually important in terms of his wellbeing.

Is he lonely? Maybe he is. I don't know. Like I've always said he has friends he goes out. Maybe its not enough for him I guess. I get that.

BUT practically speaking its impossible to give him what he needs. I just can't. I've got my own family and his behaviour in the past nearly caused me to lose them.

I used to feel guilty but then realised hes never happy so know I don't feel guilty because I know I do my best for him.

I invite him out he refuses to go. EVERY TIME. Then a day later hes moaning hes not been out anywhere. A week later hes demanding I take him for a ride in the car (often its not the right time because I've got my 6 year old with me and she doesnt really want to sit in the car for hours just to look at the mountains).

Surely if you're lonely you'd be overjoyed at ANY offer to go out with someone?

Why does he do this? CM you might be right. Its evidence that someone cares. This seems to be VERY important to him. More important than anything else it seems.

Over the years, I've done loads for him. Sorted his house out, his shower, his stairlift, taken him on holidays EVERYTHING. So why does he want weekly confirmation that I care?

I know, and hes told me this, that he thinks I should be putting him first before my own family. So I don't know if this is where the weekly "someone cares" test is coming from?

As I'm sure you can appreciate it cant work like this.

Going into a home. He'd love it. I know he would. Chance of getting him in. More chance of me popping out a gold nugget as the saying does. BECAUSE his sons care about him and if they put him in a home they wouldnt care.

Its the ultimate test for him. Sons look after me if you care.

Talking of "homes". Did I mention his comment when I first said I can't do the betting shop run?

"If no-one helps me I'll have to go into a home". Jeez. Im still annoyed about that now. I'm sure social services have got a tick box on the form - "do you have family who go to the betting shop for you".

Right next to ability to wash, use the toilet, dress yourself, feed yourself :-)

Paul, I know you think you're joking, but actually if he had a regular package of care, his support workers would indeed cover "going to the betting shop" as part of his habitual routine.

Why do you expect your father to be logical in the way he expresses his feelings, by the way? It's just the noise he makes. You could be doing everything perfectly to his exact specifications, and he'd still find something else to squeak about. You'll have to decide for yourself what needs doing and what doesn't really, and stop reacting so allergically to his squeaks.

CM - OK I must admit I don;t know much about support workers etc?

In the past, hes had people come in but they rush in, do his breakfast etc rush out. Like I said he cancelled those all the time because they didnt come time he wanted.

I'm guessing having a support worker to run around for you is not free?

'Course it's not free. Not for your Dad, anyway; but he wouldn't be paying anything like the whole cost if his social worker decided he needed ongoing care. It shouldn't be you having the funding conversation with him - you'll just get the "I'm not paying for - !" reflex when what you want is for someone who knows the facts to show him the comparative numbers.

The service I now work for actually is free of charge, but it's not quite the same thing - we do reablement, which means getting people back to their individual normal (whatever that was) so that they can manage confidently on their own. We're there for a few weeks, and after that if they still need support they go back into the mainstream care system. The cost to the public purse is justified by savings on repeat hospital admissions and residential or long term care. Sometimes it works! - a person learns ways of managing or tries out equipment that keeps them safe and independent for the foreseeable future :) I must admit that sometimes you wonder who on earth thought we were the right service for a given client; but it's always worth a try.

Probably your best bet is to go to your father's local authority's website, go to the social services section, go to Adult Services, go to Older Adults, and have a browse. I do sometimes get the impression that you're operating on assumptions that are years out of date - if indeed they ever were true as opposed to pessimistic urban myth. And your father all the more so: I wonder when he last set foot in a decently run "care home."

What he wants people to do needs to be nailed down in the assessment. Any sentence that begins "I just want..." or "I can manage..." is likely to be purest baloney, but if that's what goes in the assessment you can't really blame the carers if they're not doing what he'd genuinely find useful.

And stop having unreasonable expectations of his personality! How long have you known him, after all?

CM Excellent advice! I just googled reablement & came accross a youtube with this service in the UK. What a fantasic approach!

I image some people call themselves independant but have had to start relying on family heavily. This would be a huge improvement to their confidence, skills & give better real independance.

If the default mode is "others should do this for me" with no aim for independance, that would be quite a challenge! Even if family have said it & said it, it may be absorbed better if a Carer says it. That if you can't manage these things, it's time to look at a home services or an aged home as you can't expect your family to it all.

Paul's Dad DOES expect/want him to drop his life it seems from what he says. Cognitive decline? Lack of empathy? Confrol. Whatever it is - need to shrug it off. Hey Dad, I can't do all that... I have to go to work you know. Do you want your grandchildren to starve? Of course I care about you & want you to be OK. That's why I"ve arranged these great people to come & see you to get you a bit more help around the house. You know I can't do it all myself, but I'll help you get what you need.

If he says no, it has to be YOU Paul, only you. Tough. Nope.

YAY. Xmas Day is sorted. I've offered Boxing Day.... He moaned and moaned but hes agreed. To be honest, I really dont feel guilty. Hes ruined so many xmas days with his antics its time for my kids now.

CM - I know you're right about perceptions my Dad has. Thats him all over but he refuses to consider things.

In his head, a care home is like a victorian work house. He refuses to visit.

I will look into it though. SS do know about him hes had grants in the past but they've been a bit useless.

As for the free thing, if it was £5 Dad wont pay it.
EVER. Remember hes got walk-in shower. He was asked to contribute £200 I think to that. He thought this was the full price and "£200 is daylight robbery for a few days work" (of course true cost was £7000). He went MONTHS not showering, he'd wash with a flannel in the kitchen sink because he didnt want to spend the money. Took me months to get him to agree.

Stair lift was worse. Again I think it was £300 needed. Nope. He could cope. He got one of those pee bottles from hospital and peed into that and poured it down kitchen sink. Ewww. When he went upstairs he crawled on his hands and knees. Again 3 months before he agreed.

This is the guy who has over £40K in his bank account. If I said to him we'll get someone in but it'll cost £x per week NO CHANCE.

Why because "I'll managed" and hes got his sons to do it for him.
Beatty - as you point out. He does not want to try to be independent he wants someone to do it all for him but not in a care home, and not if hes got to spend money.

He's lost touch with today's prices - well can't blame him eh? Probably thought 200 quid was 2 years wages... maybe turn it around. Dad, you SAVED 6,800! What amazing luck! You got a GREAT deal there.

Works for my tighter-than-tight Mum. Wouldn't eat the sandwich in hospital (how much is it?) until told it was FREE! The ramp needed for the wheelchair to get in the house cost about $3,000. The idea was killing her until Dad told her the first quote was $5,500 & our strategy was born. Now she remembers they saved $2,500 :)

Beatty - Yeh should have seen his face when he saw the full breakdown of work and costs....

BUT he still doesn't change.

I always remember a few years ago he told me brother had new job. £100 a week, good money he said. I was like "what?". I told him Dad minium wage is almost £10 an hour.... He looked at me aghast.

He often asks me how much I get an hour. No way am I getting into that one. I tell him I get paid per day. (Im a self employed consultant so it looks a lot to "normal" people - he already thinks I'm rich).

Paul - apple, tree.

Dear God in Heaven. You say your father won't pay, he won't consider it, he wouldn't even look - !

and then you give two examples of when he needed equipment that was installed and paid for.

What you mean is you spent three months wrangling about it and found it an ordeal. But you didn't need to wrangle. All you needed to do was get the facts and then wait.

So get the facts, and wait. Your stress comes from all the pointless arguing.

CM - I agree to a certain extent. BUT, we're all going to have concerns about our elderly parents which, in this case, were justified.

Crawling up the stairs to save money. Peeing in the sink. I'd be the one to deal with the fallout when he fell down the stairs and when the housing association kicked him out of the house (it had started to get really bad and he smelled really bad - people had complained)

BUT I can see you're point. Leave him to it. This was a few years ago. Now I'd just say "up to you but dont call me when it all goes wrong".

Uh?

The point is that you give up before you begin on certain options because they are not free of charge, your heart sinks at the thought of the conversation, you set out thinking "Dad won't pay" and surprise surprise the plan never even gets off the ground.

My point is that yes, Dad WILL pay - as he has demonstrated on at least these two key occasions. He did pay his share of the shower installation. He did pay his share of the stair lift.

So start out on that assumption instead: work out the numbers, give him the options, and let him come round in his own good time.

CM - you think dad paid his "share" of these two items??? 200 of a 7000 item? AND he thinks the 200 was highway robbery. Although dad should be paying for these items that assist him, I do agree on some level that these were "necessities", given dad's "workarounds." If paul didn't provide these and something happened, what would SS have to say?

Illness (unsanitary conditions) or injury waiting to happen - until we got mom moved (she wanted nothing to do with moving anywhere) I was worried about injury/death/wandering, etc and was also concerned that if something happened would they be looking at us for not stepping in - damned if you do and damned if you don't (don't = being told we CAN'T force her to move.) Horrible situation to be in, being unable to move her, but being suspect if something untoward happens.... hence my "screen name"

As for options, leaving out money from the equation, paul has often provided options - such as buy more food so as to not run out, have food/items delivered, etc and it is met with flat out refusal. Brings in aides, but they don't meet dad's REQUIREMENTS regarding time, so out the door with them.

I don't see any way to reason with this man and options have been presented and refused. If you add in $$$, forget it. Sure, he paid a pittance towards the two items. If I had the means and mom needed those, I would have just done it and said it was free from SS. She would also complain about the cost of anything and everything, so just to avoid the noise, it would be worth it to just pay for it! So, about the best that can be done is continue providing options but refuse to bend to his will. (one or two set days/month, allocated to shopping and anything that needs tweaking/fixing/sorting out - anything else, either live without it until the next assigned day or pay someone to do it. CHOICES. 1 & 2, choose one or two or do without.

Thankfully he has let the Christmas thing go. Most of Christmas is for kids, but getting family together who ENJOY being together is a better use for this "holiday", however this one doesn't enjoy being with the family, only what and when he wants. Who needs Scrooge at the dinner table?

Paul; I'm not sure why your think that having L40K in the bank makes your dad "comfortable".

Even at the age of 90 or so, what is his annual "safe withdrawal rate"? 5%? 6%?

Does he receive a pension or other regular monthly payment that covers expenses?

If I had only 40K in the bank, I would be terrified of running out of funds.

Barb - Whats safe withdrawal rate? Do you mean how much he can withdraw at a time?

He gets pension and disability allowance from the government. He spends way less than his income (part of the reason hes got £40K its going up and up).

He lives in accommodation that he part owns if that makes sense. Any maintenance is down to the housing association. Everything.

He has nothing is going to throw up an unexpected cost to be honest.

CM - If I'd done that he'd still be crawling up the stairs, peeing in the kitchen sink, and washing with a flannel to this day.

He only gave in because I kept on at him. In the end, I had to be quite blunt and tell him, to be honest, if social services found out what he was doing there'd be issues.

Disgusted - as you say, you can't force anyone. I've tried the "its free Dad" and then paying myself. Hes on the ball and doesnt miss a trick - of course, all the letters would come addressed to him so he'd know.

Imagine WW3/hurricane all in one. That what happens when I pay for something. In the past, I've done this and hes gone mad, phoned up and cancelled. (think this was for a cleaner)

Paul, do you save for your own retirement?

A "safe withdrawal rate" is the percentage that one can withdraw from one's investments so that you can be reasonably sure the money will not run out in one's lifetime. The historical SWR over here is considered to be 4% if your portfolio is invested somewhere in the range of 40-60% stocks and the rest in bonds or other fixed instruments. And if you want that money to last 30 years.

You might sit with your dad and do some reading together on the Wiki of Bogleheads.org or read a Retirement book together. (Making your Money Last by Jane Bryant Quinn is good)

There are calculators like Firecalc which can be used to calculate SWR as well. He can use a tool like that to plot his pension and expenses and then figure out how much he can take per year, assuming, say, a 15 year life span.

But the thing is, he is clearly worried about running out of money, which he equates with independence. And I'm a retired person with a pension and Social Security that covers most of my expenses AND a heck of a bigger nest egg than your dad has and I still terrified of spending any of it.

I guess it has to do with the idea that we are no longer bringing in new money and we've lived through the horrible inflation of the 1970s and a couple of financial collapses. It makes one very cautious and frugal.