It's been a hard week....

While looking up the alternative Serenity Prayer (snide version) for another thread, I happened to find this - might be applicable, or at least get a chuckle from you!

When I'm having a bad day
and it seems that people are trying to wind me up,
it takes 42 muscles to frown,
28 to smile
and only 4 to extend my arm and smack someone in the mouth!

Smile when you say NO and end the conversation (in lieu of the smack, since you are on the phone)!! :-D

I guess the question is, in part, what does "I've been ill" mean to dad?

To my mom, slightly loose bowels were a sign of impending demise. I don't know if it's generational or what, but diarrhea meant something VERY serious was going on.

After a LOT of investigating, it turned out mom was self medicating with Immodium and Laxatives. Took us a year to figure out why should would go anywhere.

This was one of the symptoms that the geriatric psych took into account when recommending a full neurolsych workup. Mom really could live alone anymore.

Since he only seems to become "ill" when a vacation is planned or some other tactic to get Paul to drop everything and attend to him doesn't work, I don't think anything physical is wrong with him. Sniffles sometimes. As Paul says likely allergies. Won't pay to have anything delivered, won't go to the doctor. Paul isn't a medical person, so just what would him being there accomplish other than gratifying this man's need to control?

Having self-injured just to get to the doc and say 'see, I am hurt' is pretty sad. BUT, even if it is something medical, when Paul suggests going to the doctor, suddenly it isn't so bad. Add it all up, it is game playing to get what he WANTS and NOW.

While clearly your mother (Barb) was self-medicating, Paul's dad doesn't even take the medication Rxed by the doctors! He's not getting his way, so he plays these games. Some day it IS going to bite him in the behind, but by crying wolf just to make Paul come there for ridiculous reasons he is setting himself up.

It's also telling when a day or so after being 'so ill' he's off to the betting shop or to the local pub with friends. Sounds more like a kid playing hooky from school because he has a paper or test due, then miraculously he is cured the next day! When he whines he needs food and Paul offers delivery, suddenly he'll get by. Same with most everything he tries - if Paul has a solution for the "emergency" that doesn't requiring dropping everything and driving 40m each way, oh, it can wait. GAMES. Mind games. A whole bag of tactics to switch to when one or another doesn't work.

Were he here in the US, he might qualify for a Razzie award.

disgusted/Barb,

Every single phone call I get a moan about his hayfever. Really! Then, because he knows I get it too, he asks, so is this normal?

Its flippin hayfever. Its not nice but its not going to kill you. Honestly....

Yes I think he probably has got munchausens to be honest...

I wish sometimes here in the uk we had to pay for some medical services. Its all free to be be abused by Dad. Can guarantee if he had to pay a few pounds for a GP appointment he wouldnt call them even if he was dying....
Not listening to the GP is nuts though. What does he expect me to do about it?

But yes ALL alternatives are refused. Its got to be his way. He'll push and push then when hes not winning will revert right back to "oh its ok then".

Its like fencing with Dad. He will attack, poke and prod, to see if he can get in. If I defend he'll fall back into defensive mode, try again a few days later with a different attack.

Like I said, pretty sure we're ramping up to another "fall" here. Im waiting for the call from the hospital.

Fencing! That's a really good description!

I send EMS for falls - every time. I'm actually dreading the milder problems that you can't send EMS for. The I have a temp & can't reach the pain relief tablets &
a glass of water. Is being unable to get out of bed a legit reason to call?

Paul, I have a suggestion that he will probably reject. But it's a parry for you.

(Does he take antihistimines?)

Has he ever been to an allergist and been tested for what sets off his sneezing?

I always assumed I had hay fever. My mom (and her mother before her) were great and dramatic sufferers with it. I had it too, I thought.

My doc insisted on an allergist. I was tested. I do NOT have hay fever. I am allergic to dust. And horses.

Got rid of rugs. Got HEPA-filtered air cleaners. Vacuum for frequently. And I take cheap generic antihistimes every day. I haven't had a sinus infection in 20 years. I used to get them several times a year.

I'm betting at least some of your dad's sneezing is due to the poor air quality in his home (old carpets, little vacuuming, etc.).

If he can't be bothered to take care of that stuff, and if he won't be bothered with an allergist or the meds he's been given, your answer is "gee, that's too bad dad. And too bad you won't help yourself by following the doc's orders. What is it you think I can do to help if you don't care enough to help yourself?".

I think this is garden-variety hypochondria and manipulation; nothing so interesting as a Munchhausen.

barb - no he hasn't. To be honest, I'm not sure the nhs in the uk would even do this? They give you anti-histamines and thats it.

Yes good points about his house. Carpets are almost 30 years old. It get vacuumed once a fortnight.

I did tell him one time that having a shower helps - obviously it washes the pollen off you. So he upped his regime to 2 showers a week.

I know! Of course, its rarely really hot here in the uk, but we do have odd spells where it might reach 85F, and pretty much no-one has AC. You can only imagine how bad it smells in my Dads flat when its 6 days since last shower as well.....

Paul, just to be a smart aleck and play a preemptive move, ask dad when he plans to fall. When he asks why, you can tell him that it has been his pattern to do that when things don't go his way, or get 'sick' when you go on vacation.

polar - yeh I do often tell him he loves being in hospital and he gets a bit nasty lol.

Swears blind he doesnt want to go to hospital and he'd rather have his health and not be SO ILL.....

Well after tonights visit I'm at the end of my tether. Its now affecting my health....

More "woe is me" from Dad. How he needs to be looked after. How he is NEVER going into a home.

More plays from brother whos made up some excuse why he cant visit at weekends for a month. Hes done that before - think its forces me to visit then.

More "woe is me" from Dad. How hard done by he is how no one cares about him.

I honestly could do with no seeing him ever again and my life would be happier.

"Yes, well Dad, that's your call, not getting professional care, which is paid for by the NHS. I would think that you'd want to take advantage of that benefit. My friends in the US, their parents have to pay $10, 000 per month of their own money to get care. Here, with the NHS, you get it for free.

I can only come as often as I can get away from my own work and family obligations; if you need more looking after than that, I'd think you'd like to make sure that you've gotten what the deductions from your paypacket have paid for, what?"

Barb - you're right of course. He just never gives up. Its push, push, push all the time....

Then theres brother whos constantly engineering things to try and get me to "do my duty".

I know I should be firmer but I feel like im constantly backed into a corner by them both.

Paul, just say no to dad and your brother. If they get mad at you, so what? That’s what my therapist would say to me when I told her my mother would be mad at me. She would say “so what”.

Paul - a few days ago, you were doing really good keeping boundaries and not engaging. Of course, dad will keep pushing. You will have to thicken up your skin. Walk away, play deaf, go gray rock, etc., whatever helps.

Take a breather.
Refocus
Block dad's number for a few days
Watch your blood pressure
Just say NO or don't engage

"You'll have to make other arrangements, Dad".

And yes, so what if he gets mad?

That, my dear Paul, is what therapy can do for you. Replace that voice in your head that tells you that all of your happiness and security is riding on not making the narcissistic parent mad.

It's time you looked into that.

I used to wonder how people became estranged from elderly parents. I get it now.

I met a 98yr old. Had refused & refused alll help his kids suggested. Demanded & demanded they do this & that. They said no. They left him to it. Eventually he's an ER Dump to the hospital, covered in necrotic wounds after his carer/housekeeper/mail order wife??? could stand no more. Demands to be spoon fed. Demands me to pass the cup to him. Pass me the cup, pass me the cup! It's in your own hand I replied. I want YOU to pass it to me. Yes Sir. You will need to put it down first. I pushed it nearer & watched him keep picking it up & down demanding it be passed to him.

Sometimes I suppose you just have to save your own sanity.

Save yourself Paul in case this is in store...

Yeh I'm not so good at just saying NO. Perhaps I do need therapy....

To be honest, I don't know what the future holds. Hes getting worse. Hes obsessed with the idea that he needs help but he doesnt hes just lazy. Trouble is hes so damn stubborn that the help has to be one of us.

It is indeed a nightmare at the moment. Beatty - yep I can see him going that way.

I could never understand how someone could be estranged from their very own parents either. Now I get it!!! My mother has her mind, but her mental illness is kicking in high gear!!

we got into an argument over the phone on Wednesday. She hung up on me. She called an hour later to say she couldn’t breathe and let me know “ITS YOUR FAULT “!! “I can’t breathe because you yelled at me!”

I calmly told her to breathe in through her nose and out through her mouth. She said can you call 911? I said yes, I’ll call right now. She had a panic attack.,I talked to the EMTs and she was fine when they got there.

Paul, it’s only going to get worse.,My mother has her mind but her mental illness is so bad right now that she lashes out at me. Seek therapy for yourself. Start telling your dad NO. Remember, who cares, if he gets mad at you. Who cares. Paul, your Dad is mad at you? The therapist will say to you, WHO CARES??

Therapy is free here... and unlike some therapists for hire, many of us have been through this and not only understand, but know what often works best to preserve our own sanity. While some methods may not work for everyone, in general most of the "techniques" do help us remain SANE! Take your free therapy and put it to good use!

The two of them can only paint/push you into a corner if you let them. PUSH back. Easiest is to just stand your ground and say NO firmly. Do you **REALLY** care if he gets mad? He already gets irritated, which is one notch below mad. Let him get mad. That only affects HIM. You just go about your business.

Last I read, bro was unemployed, so who cares if he's gone for the weekends? There are 5 other days in the week. Even if he has picked up employment, he's minutes away, so he can cover some "emergency" easily. He just doesn't want to, and like father like son, he wants to dump it all on you. As many of us know, all too often siblings are or become useless. I wouldn't even bother giving him a moment of my brain power.

"Hes obsessed with the idea that he needs help but he doesnt hes just lazy."

Okay dad, you need help. Hire someone. I have a full time job and a family to provide for, plus I am not a care-giver nor do I have medical training. I CANNOT be on call for you. Either you make do with my [bi-weekly (insert what you plan to do)] visits, or you hire someone or you move to assisted living. If you don't want to hire someone or end up in a "home", then get up off your duff and become more active. Those who do, get by. Those who don't end up in a "home."

Point him to Captain Moore - SIR Moore, who at 99 YEARS OLD, almost 100 actually, following surgery, walked and walked and walked some more to raise a LOT of money for the NHS, ALL WHILE WALKING WITH A FRAME (aka walker.) Tell him if he sits and waits to be waited on, he WILL end up in a home. Period. That's why many people DO end up having to go to a "home." Inactivity. Not long before his walking to raise money, SIR Moore had multiple medical issues, not little sniffles and maybe some aches and pains in the butt:

"In 2018, he received treatment from the NHS for skin cancer and, separately, a broken hip and other serious injuries, following a fall. He has also had a hip replacement and two knee replacements."

I wouldn't even mince words. I would call him pathetic if he were my father. I mean it - I have called people that before when they really deserve it! In general I don't speak up to others, but for those precious few, yup, both barrels - generally after trying to be nice, make suggestions, offer some help, etc. Not too many, and there are likely many more who deserve it, but I try to hold my tongue unless they are over the top.

Suck it up buttercup, or you WILL end up unable to walk and move about, which WILL mean moving to a "home." Walking and social activity keeps us physically and mentally healthy. Sitting around on our ass leads to weakness and falls. Keep it up dad, I've been to the psychic, she says she sees a "home" in your future...

Yes, I've repeated "home" a lot... Rub it in, with salt. Maybe some lemon juice too.

Paul, here is a book that will teach you mindfulness and how to say no to dad. It’s called “Walking on egg shells taking your life back when someone has borderline personality disorder.” I just ordered it. I don’t know if my mother has borderline personality disorder or not but when I was reading about the book, it discusses boundaries and saying no and sticking to your guns and not caving in! Order the book. Perhaps it will help you too. Just reading the reviews and how people loved the book gives me hope about my mother. Perhaps it will help with your dad. It can’t hurt.

Yeh I guess its just me - Im the same with everyone. I hate arguing or having things unresolved. I'm like it with my wife, people in work etc. It plays on my mind that someone is not happy with me.
I dont know why.

Of course, Dad is the master at playing this. I dont seem able to say No because he comes back with why? then all of a sudden I'm jadeing.
Im making excuses etc because its easier.

Im at the point where I'm so mad, I dont care if he doesnt like it. BUT still there is a small 1-2% thinking I am being mean to him - just a niggle.
I guess I just like a quiet life too much and not willing to put in the hard yards so to speak,

disgusted - yes he deserves this. He just does not make ANY effort AT ALL.
He just says "you don't know what its like being old". No I dont but a lot of people put up with it.

Honestly, I have nightmares about what would happen if he were ever really ill - you know cancer or something. You hear stories about people making the most of their last years - Dad would be the opposite. He'd go to pieces.

I hear stories from my wife who visits people at home. Some people are 100 times worse off than him.

Sometimes I am so embarrassed for him - hes like a big adult baby he really is.

His attitude to care homes in unreal. They're not Victorian workhouses. He can't see that. But like you said, get on with it, or that'll happen.

Alas, he thinks the option "my sons do whatever I want them to do" is not an option.

Yeh broher. I've lost track. I think hes working temporarily. Hence the made up excuse that his wife has a painting job miles away and since she cant drive hes got to take her at the weekends so cant visit dad.

Paul, I wonder if you could do a bit of bargaining. You offer him one (or more) visit/s at home after each time he has been with you to visit an aged care facility. He won’t like it – too bad, no visit from you. Pick at least 3 facilities that would be convenient for you from Cardiff. The chances are that by the time he has seen 3, he will start comparing them and talking about which were worse, which not quite so bad. If he refuses totally, you will have a justification for your own ‘no’ - if he won’t even agree to an outing with you to visit a facility, he is not in genuine need of any visit from you.

If it turns into an argument, tell him that if he does become too frail to cope at home, he won’t be in hospital for more than two or three days (likely true), and then he will have to go to a care home whether he likes it or not. At least having seen them might help him choose. Once you’ve got an idea about which would be best, put his name on the waiting list and hope.

It's at least a strategy to try!

Crafty Margaret! I like 😆

My lot had no interest in looking so I went alone. To tour 1 private, 1 Gov & 1 church.

I was at my wit's end, was the 'on call help' with no backup plan no matter how loud I asked. So ultimatum time! Get that backup or be dropped into a home while I go on holiday. Dropped off to the church place it was. And successful too. Booked for the following year in fact. Then she decided she could try another place.

That was sister. Mother has been same. Forced against will first time, then decided to tour others & chose a different one next. Having their own choices is a HUGE positive. I had been saying for years... choose! Before a hospital social worker does!

This could work Paul... Hey Dad, you were so worried while I was away. It would be so much better if you had someone looking after you when I am away in future. I am planning more trips away - so this is what we can do. You can take a 'holiday' at the local 'Henoed Hall' or whatever it's called. Let's tour 3. You choose one & we'll book you in for (quick, plan next holiday).

If a flat out no. Give it time. Kept reminding him that your next holiday is coming up. What has HE decided. Home 1, 2 or 3, hire home help, or nothing & stop moaning.

Have a think.

Paul, I thought I’d give you an example of how hypnotic it can be to make comparisons. DH1 and I went for a 3 month European trip including through Austria, southern Germany and Switzerland. Everywhere we saw shop after shop selling cuckoo clocks, in which neither of us had any initial interest. To start with as a joke, we started comparing cuckoo clock options, those that were simply dreadful, those that weren’t all that bad etc. By Zurich we had decided on optimum cuckoo clock attributes, and (you guessed it) we finally bought one.

Try visits to facilities with your father, it might just work as a deal for you to make home visits. Or you could just get him a cuckoo clock, that says what you think of him ie ‘cuckoo’.

Paul, are you able to say "no" without doing it angrily?

You seem to equate "no" with
Not being nice
Not being a good guy
Not being helpful
Being angry
Being nasty
Being mean.

Sometimes we say "no" to people we love because we know better. Sometimes it's because we simply can't do the thing they want. Sometines it's because they are making unreasonable requests.

Practice saying "no" without explanations and without anger. Walk out if anger starts to take over.

I think your dad enjoys winding you up. Don't let him. Walk out before it gets to that.

Yes the care home thing needs to be looked at - time to think about it...

Barb - not easily. He just annoys me so much....

Last night he phoned me and did me a favour. Another rung on the ladder where I finally tell him to go away.

So he phoned me. Usual old moaning about his health. Nothing wrong with him and I'm not a doctor.

So then he wants to know when I'm visiting. OK. Wednesday night Dad. OK. Sorted methinks.

Dad has a habit of blurting out whatever comes into his head. "Yes, you need to visit me AT LEAST 2-3 times a week". Eh? When did I ever agree this? At the moment, I go probably 3 times a month.....

Thing is, and I should have known at the time I was wasting my breath, I explained a week or so ago how I had other responsibilities and I'd do what I could. He sat there nodded and said yes, yes, yes. I'm sure we've all got stuff in our lives but he KNOWS what other things I've got.

In one ear and out the other. Does not give a stuff about me obviously...... I've had it now.

Paul, it IS time to think about something different. He sounds like he would do well in something like USA Independent Living or Assisted Living. You need to check the options around you.

He is a real pain, but the alternative to jumping when he says jump, shouldn’t be cutting off completely. You do care about him, and he does think a lot about you, even though he doesn’t ‘give a stuff’ in the ways he should. Don’t break your heart. Focus on finding a way to get him into the right place for him. It’s in both your best interests. If you don’t like the ‘deal’ system I offered, what other way can you think of? The ‘deal’ really is worth thinking through. Or what can other posters come up with?