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"Your father should be proud of you slumming it in a cheap hotel dive In Gloucester!"

Given some of the quotes attributed to him, I should think he would suggest sleeping in the car rather than pay...
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Thank you for that Paul. Excellent rugby wit! Your father should be proud of you slumming it in a cheap hotel dive In Gloucester!
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ChrisCat - could see Kingsholm from the top of Shire Hall.
Yeh Wales are poor at the moment though.

Half the Glos team is welsh aren't they? I used to say that - even the rugby team has got to ship the welsh over the border to help them ;-)

My best ever two weeks in work were the Rugby world cup. Wales beat England then England lost to Australia to get knocked out the weekend after. Two good mondays....

I'm an expert on cheap (and scruffy) hotels in Gloucester. Used to stay over sometimes. (and I was paying so nothing fancy!) Don't go to The Station hotel ever!
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Traaaaaaaaaact-errrr...!!!

We are? Why did I get such a grumpy text from Daughter 2, then - who did we beat? Sorry, busy working, missed the match.

Paul I couldn't give a monkey's what anyone thinks about class distinctions either way round full stop. I grew out of it when my Dad nearly burst a blood vessel not laughing at my expression as I was introduced to my Shropshire-native second cousin, who had been married to a London bus driver for forty years and whose accent was the worst of both. My blood relation, and she sounded like a cross between Wurzel Gummidge and Alf Garnett.

I was putting your dad's point of view, one reason why he's so aggressive (i.e. defensive) when you spend money on anything that isn't carbolic soap.
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Paul, wonder how you're feeling today, now that England are Autumn Rugby Internationals Champions after this weekend?! Just saying...
We are Gloucester supporters actually but they are not doing well at the moment.
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chriscat - I've worked in both cheltenham and gloucester. I used to tell friends I was an internation commuter lol.

In fact, I worked in centre of gloucester for the council for almost 3 years. I think its knocked down - quayside building by the old prison.

655am train from newport every day. Not too bad but a long day.

Made some good friends in Gloucester. I especially enjoyed going to work after Wales beat England at rugby!
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Paul, I can see the heads of your lovely Welsh Valleys from my Gloucestershire garden!
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Xmas plans.......

Hes not mentioned Xmas day and I've not either. BUT, I won't be inviting him. Wife is working Boxing Day but I've booked a restaurant for the 2 of us like last year.

He'll be a nightmare and I've got a feeling hes going to say no. Hes got a habit of doing that "I've been stuck in the house for weeks". "OK Dad I'll take you out for a meal". "No I'll give it a miss".

Saying that MIL is still in hospital. Hopefully, she'll be out. Think shes learned a hard lesson about looking after yourself. One positive is that all my wifes siblings agree (for first time ever) that the onus is on her now to make an effort and not expect to be molly coddled by the kids.

Wife is planning to stay home for a while so she gets into the swing of things. I agree- if she comes to us she just switches off and lets everyone run around for her. Even then shes planning once a fortnight max
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Chriscat/margaret,

You're right. Thats Dad. He always says he hates people who don't do a proper days work who work in an office - ummm me.

Its amazing sometimes. Remember his idea about taxis? "not for people like us".
His current gripe is I take my little one for horse riding lessons - she loves it. I've hardly bought her a racehorse! He keeps going on about it! To be fair the poor thing (shes 7) cried and cried over the summer when she couldnt see friends and all her activities like gymnastics etc were cancelled. So its nice she can do something (alas her ice skating is still not open so we're doing horse riding for now instead).

His comment about me doing "On call" a few months ago spoke volumes. He used to be like "what? they pay you for staying home and doing nothing? Wish I'd had a job like that". BTW On call allowance isnt a huge amount.

A week or two later "Yeh I had to go into the office at 1am because I was on call and there was a big problem. Got home at 7am". "What? They made you go in all nighy? I wouldnt have done that in my job".

There we go Dad.....

ChrisCat - Welsh butti. Rugbys a working class game here!
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CM - Hmmm. Seems a bit unfair....

I'm proud to be from the Valleys. Proud of where I came from. BUT also proud that I managed to get out of there through hard work.

Thing is I have NEVER EVER let my Dad down. I've ALWAYS helped him whenever I can. In fact, it could be said I'd be perfectly fine to cut him off the trouble hes caused over the years - I almost got divorced because of him.

Remember CM - I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I was brought up by a single parent (Dad worked in a factory) on a rough council estate. Went to a very poor high school in a deprived area. The ONLY THING I HAD GOING FOR ME was a desire to get on and I did. My wife was also brought up on a council estate (different one) - her mum was a cleaner, her Dad a taxi driver.

Yes I earn about 3x times the average salary in the UK now. So what? I deserve it.
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"Has lockdown put a stop to extended family gatherings?"

Lockdown or not, I think Dad's behavior (bad) had already settled that issue - aka he's not really welcome to spend the day, or less, with the family. He doesn't care for the kids, and just complains and/or criticises. I wouldn't invite him to my place either! Bring some gifts, maybe a food package, and a limited visit LATER after the kids are done with Xmas. Maybe even Xmas eve or the day after. Never invite the REAL Grinch to Xmas!!!
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I get the anti-toff idea. My Mother had it, but she has changed.

She used to think going out for Xmas lunch was for the very rich or very lazy people. (Now she accepts a meal out is acceptable & enjoys skipping the cleanup).

What's the Xmas plan this year Paul? Has lockdown put a stop to extended family gatherings?

Traditions can change. Especially this year.
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Margaret, I don't think CM is suggesting that Paul is trying to dump his dad. The thing is, it may be his dad's fear that that will happen. Because in his day, I'm sure he saw that occur.
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CM, this last comment seems a bit off the target, if you meant it for real. There has never been a suggestion that Paul’s father has been “dumped on the scrap heap along with everything else that isn't good enough for Paul now that he's a rich man with a white-collar career and social aspirations for his own young family”. Your examples are 19th century books about social climbers at a time when class was a difficult issue for anyone who wanted to ‘better themselves’. Check for more in New Grub Street, George Gissing.

Having working-class roots is more likely to be a matter of pride these days – it is for me, for sure. Paul’s father isn’t showing much respect for working class ‘worth and values’. He rips off the NHS, and complains non-stop when anyone (including the doctor) doesn’t jump for him. He’s taken very little responsibility for his family, or even for himself. Paul’s temper is finally becoming a bit frayed (good!), but Paul has shown more respect for his father than vice versa. Give him a break!
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Paul's father is afraid of being dumped on the scrap heap along with everything else that isn't good enough for Paul now that he's a rich man with a white-collar (or more probably collarless) career and social aspirations for his own young family.

It's not a new problem. See also Hard Times (Josiah Bounderby), Framley Parsonage (Griselda Grantly). It isn't enough to remember where you came from, it's equally important to respect its worth and its values.
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Paul, reading your most recent posts, I think your father has two issues with you. Firstly, he wants to control you. Secondly, your education and good career have given him an inferiority complex. Both mean he will belittle you or criticise what you do/think as a way of dealing with his own issues. I can identify with this as my stepfather was just the same. He was from a solid working class background in the industrial UK Midlands. I and my husband did well at our state schools and both have good university degrees, whilst also coming from working class backgrounds. My stepfather would belittle us for our “middle class pretensions “ because of the types of newspapers we read, the fact that we preferred rugby over football and because we enjoyed going to the theatre, to give a few examples. Maybe our US friends won’t understand how much the class system is still alive and kicking in the UK today! The way we coped was to find some common ground. He was obsessed with world war 2 history, so my long suffering husband would spend hours talking with him about this! To avoid any conversation degenerating into personal criticisms, we would ask questions starting with “what do you think about....” and it could be about the news, a tv programme, anything! We weren’t that bothered about the answer but it got him off the subject of belittling or criticising us! Paul, hope this helps and you have my sympathy!
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Dear disgusted, I forgot the barefoot in the snow, but 'uphill both ways' was a new one. Great stuff!
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Gershun,

We all need a shoulder to lean on from time to time.

If situations never change and a person doesn’t seem to hold themselves accountable for anything, it’s a problem. Then it is a pity party.

The type of person you just described is often referred to as an ‘energy vampire’ and they are extremely exhausting to be around and drain all of our energy.

Enjoy your rest. We all need time to recoup after being drained.
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I haven't read the whole conversation today but I just spent the day listening to someone whine and whine and wallow in self pity. I shut down now when it happens. I refuse to reward bad behavior anymore. And when you waste time listening to people like this or engaging them that is what you are doing in my opinion.

I'm in bed already. Exhausted from an afternoon of it. He feels better now that he's purged his negativity all day. I on the other hand not so much.
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'‘I walked 5 miles to school through the snow’."

Amended...

‘I walked 5 miles to school through the snow, uphill both ways, with no shoes’.
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Bob,

I do that! Hahaha 🤣. I have been that way since I was a kid.

My mom said that I was more interested in being outside than eating.

Those were pre video games and computer days! Kids actually played outside.

If I had a dollar for every time I jumped rope, rode my bike, climbed trees, rode my skateboard, etc. I would be rich!

I like food but I don’t eat a lot.
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Paul, your MIL reminds me of my sister--she'll go half the day without eating, and then if asked, she'll say "oh, I forgot". Her husband asks "How can you forget to eat?" Maybe some people, such as your MIL, simply don't feel hungry enough to go through the bother of eating. I'm not like that, so it's hard to me to imagine as I would have to be "half-dead" to skip a meal!
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Margaret, 'inverted snobbery' you hit the nail on the head! I haven't heard that term but I have certainly met folk with that way of thinking... And those phrases...spot on.

My Dad just loves that comedy about living in a hole in the road 😂 His family would pull that out to lighten the mood if anyone was being all 'woe is me'.
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Paul,

I have people like your dad in my family.

Yeah, it was frustrating for a time. I became immune to it after awhile. So, if you were to ask me if I cared what they thought. I would have to say, no I don’t care what they think about my thoughts or actions.

Do I wish they acted differently? Of course I do, but for their sake more than mine.

Why? I hate to see people become alienated due to their behavior.

It’s sad, but I am not willing to take their problems on as my own.

Anytime I ever did that in the past I regretted it. I let go of it all.

It is their problem, it is their responsibility to correct it, if they choose to. If they are happy being miserable that is their choice and I have no power to change them.

l refuse to see myself as they see me.

They are not my mirror image any longer. I am much happier and at peace now.

I totally agree with Barb. There are people who like to argue as a hobby!

If someone says something totally idiotic to me I have been known to say something nonsensical in return.

Once my mom said, “Why did you say that? That makes no sense!” I told her using a very calm tone, “Mom, when you ask a dumb question, sometimes you will get a stupid answer in response. I was merely being facetious because you didn’t like my sensible answer.”

She was miffed but it stopped her questioning for a bit.

Oh, she knew when to pull this stuff. It would always be while driving her to her doctor appointments.

They are sneaky and know when they have you as a captive! Any other time, we can walk away. My mom can be very manipulative when she wants to be.

I started turning my radio on when taking her to the doctor. When she tried pulling her crap, I would calmly say, “Sorry, I wasn’t paying attention. I am listening to my music.”

They can’t preach without an audience! Too bad it took me awhile to figure this out. I could have saved myself many, many headaches!
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Margaret,

May I steal that? ‘Inverted snobbery.’ Love that description!
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Paul, your father suffers from inverted snobbery. ‘I walked 5 miles to school through the snow’. ‘We lived in a hole in the road and ate gravel’ to quote Pete and Dud. You could try him with ‘The rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate, He made them high and lowly and ordered their estate’, as in ‘All things bright and beautiful’.

And it is snobbery – they’re the toffs, the nobs and the snobs, but we’re better (tougher, more sensible, closer to the soil, etc etc) than they are. Effectively, he's still celebrating the fight for pit-head showers. He thinks he’s the best. You’re the softy useless pink-palmed namby pamby. Valuing women and children proves it. He doesn’t like you much, Paul. He’s out to rub it in time and again. Everything you do is a criticism of him and his values. You will never stop ‘owing him’. He'll never stop proving he's 'one up'.

Fight back.
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Paul, I think for your dad, arguing IS conversation. It probably gives him great pleasure to argue with you.
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Barb you're right. Its difficult to talk with him is part of the problem.

If I go see him, I've got to be careful what I say so I don't get lectured. Sometimes I think "Jeez I drove her to sit here and get lectured at"

You're right about the horses. Hes got this thing, you fit in you're place, you don't make a fuss, and leave those above you alone.... He hates I'm not like that - never have been. I'll just go for it and say why not.

I think I've got a right to. I'm sure I've told you all my story, brought up by Dad as single parent, lived on rough council estate (social housing) - was one of the worst in the country. Went to a really poor high school BUT managed to pass exams and go to college. The rest is history....

Yeh I probably earn more in an hour or two than dad earned in a week, I've got a nice car, nice house, can afford holidays but its all been paid for with hard work (and my wife comes from similar background) so I'm not going to feel guilty about and think I'm not worthy.... BUT Dad doesnt think like that....
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Part of the problem is that Dad comes from a poor family. South Wales valleys here in the UK was traditionally a coal mining/steel area (not any more) so people were very poor.

Dad worked in a factory all his life so never earned a fortune. But he did ok.

Of course, I went to college and have done ok. Dad has got literally £50K in the bank but won't spend it just in case. I've given up.

There is no way I tell him what I earn of course. BUT he still thinks I should think like him and not spend money. Remember his attitude to taxis/cabs "not for people like us". Eh?
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Barb and NHWM, I TOTALLY agree on the wonderful opportunity to visit other countries, especially France and Germany.   A traveler can learn so much from seeing how others live, work and play, not to mention the beautiful historic buildings that display such beautiful architecture, style, art and living styles.

Learning to speak another language is another mind broadening experience.  It even affects how you think and approach life.
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