It's been a hard week....

These are rather mixed messages:

"You don't get that you might be able to wear him down over time, or that changing your technique or wording, or using his cousin as a shill, might cause a shift in attitude."

yet a few sentences later:

"Paul....HE isn't going to change."

You suggest trying to wear him down, and then state he isn't going to change. Which is it? Clearly, for me, Door #2. He is NOT going to change. I wouldn't even encourage trying to "wear him down" - it will only be an exercise in futility and frustration.

I don't recall his age, but think it's in his 80s? You said "Your father is old and has a legitimate need for a bit of looking after." Why? He lives alone and gets by without help, sometimes for several WEEKS when Paul is away. He's pulled the "ill" game and called the doctor, getting some unnecessary medication just so he can say SEE? I WAS ill! Then he promptly goes to the betting shop. He doesn't sound nearly as needy as he or you make him out to be!

My mother was just over 90 and still lived alone before I felt we needed to move her (we had already taken away the car), but in her case it was dementia that made that necessary. Without the dementia, she might have been able to live there a few more years, ALONE! She had NO in-home help. Without the car, someone needed to help with supplies, but she was doing great until the big D made an entrance. Even then, after move to MC, she took care of all her needs, except food, laundry, and cleaning the room, for several years. She's refusing to stand/walk now, so needs physical help, but she's also now 97! This man is just demanding. Old? Sure, but he isn't ancient by today's standards and certainly doesn't sound that decrepit! A lot of his physical "need" may just be a show for all we know.

I generally only went every 2 weeks to take her shopping or deliver other needed items AFTER we took the car away. It was almost 1.5 hours each way, so that was the plan I had to go with, before the dementia made it necessary to move her. She was THANKFUL for what I could do and NEVER demanded I be there even once/week, much less 2-3 times! She even had rotator cuff surgery in her 80s. Overnight stay in hospital, back home ALONE, worked with PT at home and we didn't help AT ALL. This man lives in an area where he can use his damn scooter to get to shops and take care of things himself and has all those nice additions Paul saw to (shr/stairlift.) Mom didn't have those luxuries! It is ALL about control. He doesn't NEED help, he WANTS to be in control and demand Paul be there. Lonely? Likely. But it isn't our job to keep them happy or from being lonely. Even when Paul does go, it doesn't change anything, not even while he is there! If we have a good relationship with someone, and enjoy each other's company, we'd be happy to make more time and be together. Who wants to be with an old piss-ant? Even the times Paul HAS taken him out to eat or off to a game, grumble, moan, complain, won't spare a coin to buy anything, won't wear briefs just in case - I wouldn't want to be there either!

"He sounds like he would do well in something like USA Independent Living or Assisted Living. You need to check the options around you."

He certainly does, HOWEVER, he is dead set against the idea of a "home" and I don't think the Queen could get him to move! IF he's been determined competent (which he has) and they've assessed him as being able to meet his own needs (with the additions Paul has facilitated), then there is NO way to MAKE this move happen. Period. IF/WHEN he develops dementia or has a serious medical problem/fall, THEN and ONLY then will this move ever possibly happen. I see no point in beating this poor horse any more. It IS dead and is about the consistency of pulp now. A move ISN'T going to happen or even be discussed/considered. Why stress yourself more trying to change the mind of someone who you yourself said isn't going to change?

Paul, do you see just how alike you and your dad are?

We offer techniques and suggestions and you always say you've tried them before and you know they won't work.

You don't get that you might be able to wear him down over time, or that changing your technique or wording, or using his cousin as a shill, might cause a shift in attitude.

You give little credence to the fact that all of us have been through this with stubborn elderly parents and that some of us have had YEARS of therapy.

Some of us are actually therapists.

Paul....HE isn't going to change. I'm sorry that you are in mental anguish over the fact that you are so low on your dad's list of priorities. That happens even with parents who DON'T have your dad's mental health issues; as we age, our universe becomes smaller and we care less about the needs of others. Just as small children are egocentric, so are elders, it seems.

Paul, your anguish has been evident from the start. We are all trying to help, but at least for me, your defeatist and rigid thinking is telling me that you need better help than we can give.

I wish you well.

margaret - I am beginning how far down his list of priorities I come at the moment. I'm a long way down I think.

Barb,

I tried the list thing. Listed needs etc. Proved to him that he was coping pretty well and there was nothing that couldnt be solved. Thought I'd got throught but no, a few days later back to the same.

It all boils down to that its either me or my brother that has to do things....

Hes had a few needs assessments. Got converted shower, stair lift etc. Every time they basically report back that he can cope fine by himself.

Which he can. Its all about his attitude.

Tried the home thing as well. NO WAY is the answer. Won't even think about it. Then tells me he'd rather be dead than go into a home.

Paul, what I hear your father saying is "I need help here 2 or 3 times a week".

That's not what he SAID but it's what he NEEDS at least in his head.

Your father is old and has a legitimate need for a bit of looking after. YOU can't personally provide it.

Use this visit to make a list with him about what needs doing how often. Then do some research about what sorts of aid he is eligible for. (And here, you are going say " But he won't pay for help").

When the list is finished you say "gee Dad, this is a whole lot of "doing" that you need. I can't possibly do all this myself. My job and my family are my first responsibilities. What are some of the ways you can get your needs met?"

Have a discussion, no an argument. Role play this with your wife, or with the mirror. Then reverse it and you BE him. You may discover some of his fear and anxiety by doing this.

Bring up the idea of a facility. Counter his arguments about getting "put away" with the idea of a trial run at one. Or at least a visit for a day out. "Don't you like having things done for you, Dad?"

How does one get a "needs assessment" in Wales? You know, a social worker and nurse to assess what he needs? When it happens, make sure you are there so that he doesn't simply say " oh, my son can do that".

On saying "no" without anger? It takes practice. Start practicing not letting him wind you up. Come up with a plan instead of getting angry.

Paul, it IS time to think about something different. He sounds like he would do well in something like USA Independent Living or Assisted Living. You need to check the options around you.

He is a real pain, but the alternative to jumping when he says jump, shouldn’t be cutting off completely. You do care about him, and he does think a lot about you, even though he doesn’t ‘give a stuff’ in the ways he should. Don’t break your heart. Focus on finding a way to get him into the right place for him. It’s in both your best interests. If you don’t like the ‘deal’ system I offered, what other way can you think of? The ‘deal’ really is worth thinking through. Or what can other posters come up with?

Last night he phoned me and did me a favour. Another rung on the ladder where I finally tell him to go away.

So he phoned me. Usual old moaning about his health. Nothing wrong with him and I'm not a doctor.

So then he wants to know when I'm visiting. OK. Wednesday night Dad. OK. Sorted methinks.

Dad has a habit of blurting out whatever comes into his head. "Yes, you need to visit me AT LEAST 2-3 times a week". Eh? When did I ever agree this? At the moment, I go probably 3 times a month.....

Thing is, and I should have known at the time I was wasting my breath, I explained a week or so ago how I had other responsibilities and I'd do what I could. He sat there nodded and said yes, yes, yes. I'm sure we've all got stuff in our lives but he KNOWS what other things I've got.

In one ear and out the other. Does not give a stuff about me obviously...... I've had it now.

Barb - not easily. He just annoys me so much....

Yes the care home thing needs to be looked at - time to think about it...

Paul, are you able to say "no" without doing it angrily?

You seem to equate "no" with
Not being nice
Not being a good guy
Not being helpful
Being angry
Being nasty
Being mean.

Sometimes we say "no" to people we love because we know better. Sometimes it's because we simply can't do the thing they want. Sometines it's because they are making unreasonable requests.

Practice saying "no" without explanations and without anger. Walk out if anger starts to take over.

I think your dad enjoys winding you up. Don't let him. Walk out before it gets to that.

Paul, I thought I’d give you an example of how hypnotic it can be to make comparisons. DH1 and I went for a 3 month European trip including through Austria, southern Germany and Switzerland. Everywhere we saw shop after shop selling cuckoo clocks, in which neither of us had any initial interest. To start with as a joke, we started comparing cuckoo clock options, those that were simply dreadful, those that weren’t all that bad etc. By Zurich we had decided on optimum cuckoo clock attributes, and (you guessed it) we finally bought one.

Try visits to facilities with your father, it might just work as a deal for you to make home visits. Or you could just get him a cuckoo clock, that says what you think of him ie ‘cuckoo’.

Crafty Margaret! I like 😆

My lot had no interest in looking so I went alone. To tour 1 private, 1 Gov & 1 church.

I was at my wit's end, was the 'on call help' with no backup plan no matter how loud I asked. So ultimatum time! Get that backup or be dropped into a home while I go on holiday. Dropped off to the church place it was. And successful too. Booked for the following year in fact. Then she decided she could try another place.

That was sister. Mother has been same. Forced against will first time, then decided to tour others & chose a different one next. Having their own choices is a HUGE positive. I had been saying for years... choose! Before a hospital social worker does!

This could work Paul... Hey Dad, you were so worried while I was away. It would be so much better if you had someone looking after you when I am away in future. I am planning more trips away - so this is what we can do. You can take a 'holiday' at the local 'Henoed Hall' or whatever it's called. Let's tour 3. You choose one & we'll book you in for (quick, plan next holiday).

If a flat out no. Give it time. Kept reminding him that your next holiday is coming up. What has HE decided. Home 1, 2 or 3, hire home help, or nothing & stop moaning.

Have a think.

Paul, I wonder if you could do a bit of bargaining. You offer him one (or more) visit/s at home after each time he has been with you to visit an aged care facility. He won’t like it – too bad, no visit from you. Pick at least 3 facilities that would be convenient for you from Cardiff. The chances are that by the time he has seen 3, he will start comparing them and talking about which were worse, which not quite so bad. If he refuses totally, you will have a justification for your own ‘no’ - if he won’t even agree to an outing with you to visit a facility, he is not in genuine need of any visit from you.

If it turns into an argument, tell him that if he does become too frail to cope at home, he won’t be in hospital for more than two or three days (likely true), and then he will have to go to a care home whether he likes it or not. At least having seen them might help him choose. Once you’ve got an idea about which would be best, put his name on the waiting list and hope.

It's at least a strategy to try!

disgusted - yes he deserves this. He just does not make ANY effort AT ALL.
He just says "you don't know what its like being old". No I dont but a lot of people put up with it.

Honestly, I have nightmares about what would happen if he were ever really ill - you know cancer or something. You hear stories about people making the most of their last years - Dad would be the opposite. He'd go to pieces.

I hear stories from my wife who visits people at home. Some people are 100 times worse off than him.

Sometimes I am so embarrassed for him - hes like a big adult baby he really is.

His attitude to care homes in unreal. They're not Victorian workhouses. He can't see that. But like you said, get on with it, or that'll happen.

Alas, he thinks the option "my sons do whatever I want them to do" is not an option.

Yeh broher. I've lost track. I think hes working temporarily. Hence the made up excuse that his wife has a painting job miles away and since she cant drive hes got to take her at the weekends so cant visit dad.

Yeh I guess its just me - Im the same with everyone. I hate arguing or having things unresolved. I'm like it with my wife, people in work etc. It plays on my mind that someone is not happy with me.
I dont know why.

Of course, Dad is the master at playing this. I dont seem able to say No because he comes back with why? then all of a sudden I'm jadeing.
Im making excuses etc because its easier.

Im at the point where I'm so mad, I dont care if he doesnt like it. BUT still there is a small 1-2% thinking I am being mean to him - just a niggle.
I guess I just like a quiet life too much and not willing to put in the hard yards so to speak,

Paul, here is a book that will teach you mindfulness and how to say no to dad. It’s called “Walking on egg shells taking your life back when someone has borderline personality disorder.” I just ordered it. I don’t know if my mother has borderline personality disorder or not but when I was reading about the book, it discusses boundaries and saying no and sticking to your guns and not caving in! Order the book. Perhaps it will help you too. Just reading the reviews and how people loved the book gives me hope about my mother. Perhaps it will help with your dad. It can’t hurt.

Therapy is free here... and unlike some therapists for hire, many of us have been through this and not only understand, but know what often works best to preserve our own sanity. While some methods may not work for everyone, in general most of the "techniques" do help us remain SANE! Take your free therapy and put it to good use!

The two of them can only paint/push you into a corner if you let them. PUSH back. Easiest is to just stand your ground and say NO firmly. Do you **REALLY** care if he gets mad? He already gets irritated, which is one notch below mad. Let him get mad. That only affects HIM. You just go about your business.

Last I read, bro was unemployed, so who cares if he's gone for the weekends? There are 5 other days in the week. Even if he has picked up employment, he's minutes away, so he can cover some "emergency" easily. He just doesn't want to, and like father like son, he wants to dump it all on you. As many of us know, all too often siblings are or become useless. I wouldn't even bother giving him a moment of my brain power.

"Hes obsessed with the idea that he needs help but he doesnt hes just lazy."

Okay dad, you need help. Hire someone. I have a full time job and a family to provide for, plus I am not a care-giver nor do I have medical training. I CANNOT be on call for you. Either you make do with my [bi-weekly (insert what you plan to do)] visits, or you hire someone or you move to assisted living. If you don't want to hire someone or end up in a "home", then get up off your duff and become more active. Those who do, get by. Those who don't end up in a "home."

Point him to Captain Moore - SIR Moore, who at 99 YEARS OLD, almost 100 actually, following surgery, walked and walked and walked some more to raise a LOT of money for the NHS, ALL WHILE WALKING WITH A FRAME (aka walker.) Tell him if he sits and waits to be waited on, he WILL end up in a home. Period. That's why many people DO end up having to go to a "home." Inactivity. Not long before his walking to raise money, SIR Moore had multiple medical issues, not little sniffles and maybe some aches and pains in the butt:

"In 2018, he received treatment from the NHS for skin cancer and, separately, a broken hip and other serious injuries, following a fall. He has also had a hip replacement and two knee replacements."

I wouldn't even mince words. I would call him pathetic if he were my father. I mean it - I have called people that before when they really deserve it! In general I don't speak up to others, but for those precious few, yup, both barrels - generally after trying to be nice, make suggestions, offer some help, etc. Not too many, and there are likely many more who deserve it, but I try to hold my tongue unless they are over the top.

Suck it up buttercup, or you WILL end up unable to walk and move about, which WILL mean moving to a "home." Walking and social activity keeps us physically and mentally healthy. Sitting around on our ass leads to weakness and falls. Keep it up dad, I've been to the psychic, she says she sees a "home" in your future...

Yes, I've repeated "home" a lot... Rub it in, with salt. Maybe some lemon juice too.

I could never understand how someone could be estranged from their very own parents either. Now I get it!!! My mother has her mind, but her mental illness is kicking in high gear!!

we got into an argument over the phone on Wednesday. She hung up on me. She called an hour later to say she couldn’t breathe and let me know “ITS YOUR FAULT “!! “I can’t breathe because you yelled at me!”

I calmly told her to breathe in through her nose and out through her mouth. She said can you call 911? I said yes, I’ll call right now. She had a panic attack.,I talked to the EMTs and she was fine when they got there.

Paul, it’s only going to get worse.,My mother has her mind but her mental illness is so bad right now that she lashes out at me. Seek therapy for yourself. Start telling your dad NO. Remember, who cares, if he gets mad at you. Who cares. Paul, your Dad is mad at you? The therapist will say to you, WHO CARES??

Yeh I'm not so good at just saying NO. Perhaps I do need therapy....

To be honest, I don't know what the future holds. Hes getting worse. Hes obsessed with the idea that he needs help but he doesnt hes just lazy. Trouble is hes so damn stubborn that the help has to be one of us.

It is indeed a nightmare at the moment. Beatty - yep I can see him going that way.

I used to wonder how people became estranged from elderly parents. I get it now.

I met a 98yr old. Had refused & refused alll help his kids suggested. Demanded & demanded they do this & that. They said no. They left him to it. Eventually he's an ER Dump to the hospital, covered in necrotic wounds after his carer/housekeeper/mail order wife??? could stand no more. Demands to be spoon fed. Demands me to pass the cup to him. Pass me the cup, pass me the cup! It's in your own hand I replied. I want YOU to pass it to me. Yes Sir. You will need to put it down first. I pushed it nearer & watched him keep picking it up & down demanding it be passed to him.

Sometimes I suppose you just have to save your own sanity.

Save yourself Paul in case this is in store...

"You'll have to make other arrangements, Dad".

And yes, so what if he gets mad?

That, my dear Paul, is what therapy can do for you. Replace that voice in your head that tells you that all of your happiness and security is riding on not making the narcissistic parent mad.

It's time you looked into that.

Paul - a few days ago, you were doing really good keeping boundaries and not engaging. Of course, dad will keep pushing. You will have to thicken up your skin. Walk away, play deaf, go gray rock, etc., whatever helps.

Take a breather.
Refocus
Block dad's number for a few days
Watch your blood pressure
Just say NO or don't engage

Paul, just say no to dad and your brother. If they get mad at you, so what? That’s what my therapist would say to me when I told her my mother would be mad at me. She would say “so what”.

Barb - you're right of course. He just never gives up. Its push, push, push all the time....

Then theres brother whos constantly engineering things to try and get me to "do my duty".

I know I should be firmer but I feel like im constantly backed into a corner by them both.

"Yes, well Dad, that's your call, not getting professional care, which is paid for by the NHS. I would think that you'd want to take advantage of that benefit. My friends in the US, their parents have to pay $10, 000 per month of their own money to get care. Here, with the NHS, you get it for free.

I can only come as often as I can get away from my own work and family obligations; if you need more looking after than that, I'd think you'd like to make sure that you've gotten what the deductions from your paypacket have paid for, what?"

Well after tonights visit I'm at the end of my tether. Its now affecting my health....

More "woe is me" from Dad. How he needs to be looked after. How he is NEVER going into a home.

More plays from brother whos made up some excuse why he cant visit at weekends for a month. Hes done that before - think its forces me to visit then.

More "woe is me" from Dad. How hard done by he is how no one cares about him.

I honestly could do with no seeing him ever again and my life would be happier.

polar - yeh I do often tell him he loves being in hospital and he gets a bit nasty lol.

Swears blind he doesnt want to go to hospital and he'd rather have his health and not be SO ILL.....

Paul, just to be a smart aleck and play a preemptive move, ask dad when he plans to fall. When he asks why, you can tell him that it has been his pattern to do that when things don't go his way, or get 'sick' when you go on vacation.

barb - no he hasn't. To be honest, I'm not sure the nhs in the uk would even do this? They give you anti-histamines and thats it.

Yes good points about his house. Carpets are almost 30 years old. It get vacuumed once a fortnight.

I did tell him one time that having a shower helps - obviously it washes the pollen off you. So he upped his regime to 2 showers a week.

I know! Of course, its rarely really hot here in the uk, but we do have odd spells where it might reach 85F, and pretty much no-one has AC. You can only imagine how bad it smells in my Dads flat when its 6 days since last shower as well.....

Paul, I have a suggestion that he will probably reject. But it's a parry for you.

(Does he take antihistimines?)

Has he ever been to an allergist and been tested for what sets off his sneezing?

I always assumed I had hay fever. My mom (and her mother before her) were great and dramatic sufferers with it. I had it too, I thought.

My doc insisted on an allergist. I was tested. I do NOT have hay fever. I am allergic to dust. And horses.

Got rid of rugs. Got HEPA-filtered air cleaners. Vacuum for frequently. And I take cheap generic antihistimes every day. I haven't had a sinus infection in 20 years. I used to get them several times a year.

I'm betting at least some of your dad's sneezing is due to the poor air quality in his home (old carpets, little vacuuming, etc.).

If he can't be bothered to take care of that stuff, and if he won't be bothered with an allergist or the meds he's been given, your answer is "gee, that's too bad dad. And too bad you won't help yourself by following the doc's orders. What is it you think I can do to help if you don't care enough to help yourself?".

I think this is garden-variety hypochondria and manipulation; nothing so interesting as a Munchhausen.