It's been a hard week....

Barb/Beatty - Yes I am trying to these things now.....

Oo I don't know. Not all that sad, not necessarily...

The difference between old furniture and IKEA disposables is that you can repair old furniture. Mend it, dear Henry.

All - Dads apartment/flat is only 20 years old. It was built new when he bought it. Alas, the furniture is a collection of stuff hes had for free off people.

No problem with old furnture but it is falling to bits. Door hanging off etc.

Had meatballs in Ikea this weekend!

BTW - Wales lost the rugby on Saturday. Sad day!

Barb - I believe Paul follows that Boundaries thread by Golden. He has posted there a few weeks ago. Whether he sees that particular post from Daughter is a different thing. Sometimes, if you just read the NewsFeed, you will only see the latest post, but not the ones before that. So, it's good that you pasted it here so for sure Paul will see it.

Barb,

I knew it wasn’t your post, as far as it being you personally. I was thanking you for sharing it. It speaks volumes! Your posts are so helpful whether it concerns you or examples from others. I appreciate your input so much.

Llama,

My parents paid $5.00 for rent when they first married! Hard to imagine, right? My husband’s grandparents lived in a large two story home in uptown New Orleans. Guess what they paid for it? $9000.00! Amazing, right? Now you can’t even buy a car for that amount.

This is NOT my post. This was written by a poster whose name is "Daughterof NPMother".

I thought the step by step tools that DONPM learned in therapy might be useful to Paul. Also, that he might gain an understanding of what HE might learn in therapy. Lots of people think they know what therapy is like.

Good therapy is about learning new ways of handling old situations so that you get a different outcome.

Barb,

I have read amazing posts from you. I don’t think I have ever read a posting as beautiful and truthful as what you just wrote. Thanks for sharing the post. Says everything, doesn’t it?

You taught me so much and I don’t think I could ever put into words my appreciation for it, other than thank you and to say that I will always be grateful.

I had a horrible situation with my brothers, all of them. My relationship with my mom was very strained. I had to end the insanity for everyone involved. It was broken and I couldn’t be responsible for fixing it any longer.

I am so grateful for the love and respect I received from my father, my aunt and uncle and my grandparents. I was very close to them. They grounded me in unstable times.

Listening to your words to me on the forum and privately gave me insight and most importantly the motivation and courage to put a plan into action that gave me my life back.

Yeah, I deal with painful memories and some scars but you and my therapist taught me that is the lesser of the evils.

Staying in my situation would have been devastating for me. My mom is being cared for. I surrendered and I don’t regret that decision at all, not one iota. I didn’t know that would be possible.

I thought that I would be causing my mom so much harm if I bailed on her. That wasn’t true. Her world did not fall apart and I got my life back. We can heal. We can move on.

Perfection? No, I don’t need perfection in my life. Growing up with a perfectionist mother was very difficult. That isn’t a goal that I wish to achieve for myself. I just want to be the best that I can be.

Yes, I have flaws, but I am loved and respected by my daughters. They don’t expect perfection and I don’t expect them to be perfect. That truly is a beautiful silver lining underneath the dark cloud of my past. I learned many good things from mom and I am grateful but I also learned what not to do from her. I didn’t want to repeat the cycle of destruction with my children. It is possible to break cycles.

If I had heard my mom own up to anything it would have meant the world to me. I would have respected her for that and felt like she was human just like the rest of us.

I didn’t require my mom to be perfect. She placed that burden on herself and me. It was hard never feeling like I wasn’t good enough for my mom. It messed up my head for a long time.

I don’t usually talk about this but I was the kid that ran away three times as a teenager.

Oh, I only stayed away over the weekend and I was safe, hanging out at my friend’s houses. That’s how stressed I was.

Did I scare my parents? Yeah. I feel badly about that but I would call after I left, didn’t tell them where I was, only said that I wasn’t coming home. Then I went home on Sunday evening because I had school on Monday. Of course, I was punished for it each time.

It’s so dangerous to put ourselves on a pedestal and extremely dangerous to put someone else on a pedestal because if we do that I can guarantee that we will set them up to fall off.

I’m not sure if I have articulated my feelings well enough to be understood. I hope that I have.

I do second guess and doubt myself frequently because that is another outcome of growing up and living with an extreme perfectionist.

I am still working on certain issues with my therapist. I admit that I have a way to go. I am definitely a work in progress and I am not giving up.

Thanks, Barb for giving me hope and courage. Your words are full of wisdom and compassion and I sincerely hope everyone will be blessed by what they read. You are indeed a blessing to this site. Please don’t ever stop.

Thanks for not giving up on me. I was a difficult challenge but I made it. I freed myself from my heartache. I’ve never looked back. No regrets. That is what brings peace and joy in the midst of pain and sorrow. It is priceless. It can’t be bought. It’s one of life’s many beautiful gifts in life if we choose to accept it.

From another thread by "DaughterofNPMother"

(Paul, I though you might find this useful)

"I first posted on this forum regarding the issue of boundaries, asking if anyone had experience with going "grey rock". I worked with a therapist solely on developing boundaries for over a year and a half. My mother passed away last December just before Christmas, and establishing boundaries during the prior months made it possible for me to be the best daughter to her and work together with my brother (who is disabled with a high conflict personality disorder) to provide care for our mother. These are some boundaries I learned:

1) I learned how to say "no" when I didn't want to do something. Words let others know what you will and will not allow. No one should be expected to read your mind. You have the right to say "no" but it can be very scary the first time you do if you are a people pleaser and afraid of rejection.

2) I learned that accepting and expressing my Truth is essential to my self worth and self care. Having the attribute of integrity is living in your own truth, being true to who you are. I value peace and tranquility, so living in a state of fear and anxiety was not living in my truth.

3) I learned to use the boundaries of Geographical Distance (keeping physical distance) and Emotional Distance (a really BIG one for me to learn). Physically removing yourself from a person or situation is a way of enforcing boundaries. I would use this as soon as my brother began ranting at me - just silently walk away and drive off. Not everyone is safe for you to open up to emotionally. This is the case with my brother. I learned to guard my heart and never share anything personal with him.

4) I learned that Time is another boundary. I am not obligated to spend X amount of time with anyone. I did not have to answer every time he called or spend X amount of time on the phone. I told him I preferred to text and stuck to that boundary even though he didn't like it. I learned to listen to my gut and ask myself, "How much time do you want to spend caretaking, etc.?" I worked my schedule to make that happen, and sought help for things that I didn't want to do.

5) I learned to reach out to groups like this one for support.

6. I learned to apply Consequences consistently for people who crossed my boundaries.

I also learned to use these Strategies:
1) Grey Rock - don't get emotionally involved with the unsafe person; use brief responses; do not engage; make yourself "boring" and of no interest to them so you are not a resource to get their egoic needs met.

2) Emotionless Contact - avoid being emotionally supportive (I know, it goes against nature!) If they bring up emotionally charged subject, don't engage. Stick to safe things like the weather.

3) Minimal Contact - use text; limit time ("I have an appointment in five minutes")and let them get answers from someone else. They will likely blame you for advising them if something goes wrong anyway.

4) Watch out for tools of manipulation: Cut off anger (walk away), self pity (no response), charm (be cautious).

5) When others are not being direct in their communication, we tend to mirror their behavior - Don't! Be direct yourself when others are not.
6) Express only needs that your can express SAFELY. Don't open your heart for punishment.

We can't control what other people think or do. My therapist taught me that we don't use boundaries to change other people's behavior, only to protect ourselves. We also learn to respect other people and not cross their boundaries.

Unfortunately, after our mother passed, my brother has done everything he can to make my life as trustee miserable, going against what my mother wanted, and going against the law. I have a great attorney and communicate only through her now. I could dwell on his behavior and make myself miserable, but I don't. I am free of his hold due to learning about boundaries. Hallelujah!"

Need: In my younger years, I used to make the swedish meatballs. IKEA's cafe/restaurant had wonderful accompaniments - I think a type of Swedish jelly/currant plus potatoes. Yum!

We don’t have an ikea here. Have not had their meatballs. Heard they are good. I married an Italian so I cook Italian meatballs.

Beatty: I would love your bathroom. It sounds very wonderful!

Margaret: No need for that as I actually love antiques. The Swedish design company, Ikea is quite cool. I used to like to go to their retail store for a dinner of swedish meatballs an accompaniments. I was just looking over pre World War One postcards as a cousin is about to turn 100 years of age and I've located some that were her mother's.

Countrymouse: Yes, I got that that just the furnishings were pre World War One.

I love antiques. Okay, who else loves the old claw foot bathtubs and pedestal sinks? I do!

Maybe I shouldn’t confess this but I dated this free spirited guy years ago who rented a great home north of our city in a rural area that had a modern indoor bathroom but he had an old fashioned claw foot tub in his backyard that he loved bathing in the sunshine in! Hahaha

Don’t know what in the world made me think of that. Hahaha, have not thought of him in a million years. Hey, with the internet anyone can be looked up.

Know what’s depressing? To think about someone who we haven’t seen in ages and just out of curiosity I look up their name and find out they died! Makes me feel old!

Of course, I grew up during the sixties era, sadly lost some friends that got caught up in too much experimentation if you know what I mean.

One of the most depressing thing about the elderly is the first thing they usually talk about is who died! It’s sad to outlive family and friends though. I get their need to talk about it. It’s really sweet to hear of babies being born. That I love. Love hearing the names. Some names are crazy today. My kids have traditional names.

Llama, you'd probably not like my 1930's place with original bathroom! He he.

A lot of our housing is Victorian, 30s-40s too, well made & solid. Then the boom & 50s-60s weatherboards, not as solid but with nice big airy rooms.

I remember a friend who was brought up in a nice old country house then moved to the 'burbs to a 1980s place (her folks wanted new). I'm sure builders differ in their abilities, but this place... It was maybe 7 yrs old & every surface had the thinest vaneer of something peeling away. Thin short skirting boards, the thinnest doors, skinny little architraves around them. Even the window glass seemed thin. So flimsy. Walls shiny bright white & all trims mission brown. Give me a pre-war anything over THAT!

I'm staggered that Llama could find it shocking to live in an old house. Ours is 100 years old, stone walls packed with mud, 3 feet thick, and it contains old furniture too. Even UK utility furniture made to a strict budget in WWII is usually well designed and well made. It's lasted more than a life time. I do like IKEA designs, but not as much as my old stuff. Dad is doing OK, if that's his biggest problem!

Llama Dad's place isn't pre-WW1, only the bedroom furniture :)

So's mine! They really built that stuff.

Having said that, a large proportion of urban housing stock in the UK is 1930s or Victorian; not to mention all the chocolate box cottages and country piles which are very much older than that. The last house I lived in was built in the sixteenth century.

There are exceptions, but the older houses tend to be better designed and built (not to mention MUCH prettier to look at) than anything put up between 1950 and 1980.

paul: Wow, that is quite shocking that he cares to live in some place built in World War One. And he does not grasp the concept of money - only to be as cheap as possible. He honestly waits for people to die to latch onto their furnishings? Sheesh. Yeah, sure - that stuff will last a lifetime - NOT. Stuff breaks!

Need: I know - that llama at the wedding in a tux has been all over the news. So cute! Our daughter's lab was in their wedding and he wore a bow tie.

Paul,

Or maybe my question should be for CM, how common are nursing homes for people in the UK and are most people resistant like your father of entering them? I am curious. I suppose many are resisting homes in the US as well.

Barb is right that the adult children of aging parents need to rearrange their thinking about aging parents. I know for myself I felt like I was totally committed to the idea of having to care for my mom until she died. It took the help of my husband, my children, certain friends, aging care forum and a therapist to convince me otherwise. We have been conditioned to believe these things. The irony in my situation is my grandparents, my mom’s parents were extremely independent. My dad’s parents had died before I was born.

Once in a discussion with my mom, my buried feelings came out and I told her, “Mom, let’s be honest here. You have never been through what I have. You never had to care for your parents like I cared for you and daddy.”

Just curious, did your dad care for his parents like you have for him? Would he have done so?

I can't imagine any therapist would give better advice than Barb's summary right there.

*Beck & call*

To insist & expect you to be at beck & call is just not reasonable. If this is pointed out & instead of 'sorry, I didn't realise' you still get 'but I need..!) then you are dealing with an irrational person. This my be due to many reasons: organic (dementia, stroke, other brain injuries) personality traits (selfishness, arrogance, entitlement) or even a personality disorder. Or maybe just a lonely scared old guy.

Like Barb, alarm bells rang when my Mum forgot how the washing line was hoisted up & down. Brain scan showed up evidence of undiagnosed stroke too. Also ongoing lack of oxygen to the brain.

Reasonable requests? She just knew something was worrying her & she wanted it done. No point asking her to try harder. Same for your Dad.

He just can't see his whole situation - just small immediate needs as they come up.

The fact that therapy is not a "thing" on the UK doesn't mean that it's not a useful tool that would help you.

If you are not able or willing to get dad specialist evaluation, as in a neuropsych eval, then take his GP's advice and let them handle him. Tell him you can visit every other weekend and that if he needs food, he should arrange delivery or allow you to. If he moans, say "that's what's on offer dad. I can't do anymore than that. My kids come first".

"No dad, follow what the GP tells you. I'm not a doctor and will not tell them what to do".

"No dad, my family are not the ones who need to understand. You need to understnd and not be thick about this. There are other ways of getting your needs met other than me being at your beck and call. I can't do this anymore; it's wrecking my home and my health".

Don't expect HIM to change.
Write yourself a script and leave it by the phone and in your pocket.

Barb - know what you mean. Trouble is my discussions with GP are "limited". Obviously they cant tell me stuff because of confidentiallity.

They so a thing in the uk where you can get access. Film in forms etc. Dad has refused my idea so far. "No need I can speak to doctor myself". So I'm stuck there.

Last time I spoke to GP, they pretty much said to me, its under control, they know what they're doing, Dad is fine and well just got a special way, and I need to not worry about it....

Paul, I can remember the day I was in a store with my mom; she needed to buy some cortisone cream. She and I always referred to this playfully as "anti itch cream". But she was the one who taught me to read labels and ingredients.

I picked up a tube of 1% cortisone. She picked up a tube of a Gold Bond brand cream that said "anti itch" in big letters.

I said "mom, that doesnt have any cortisone in it". She said "but it says anti itch cream".

I realized in a flash that my mother was no longer in there, that some part of her brain, some very fundamental part of who she was, was gone. I didn't know yet exactly what was going on.

Mom's GP said she was "fine". We all knew she wasnt fine; her ramped up anxiety about every little thing had made us move her into an Independent Living facility, because we all had jobs and couldn't come running every day. Once she was there, the geriatrics doc who had an office there sent her (after 2 visits) to a geriatric psychiatrist.

The geri psych, after 2 visits, pushed us to get a comprehensive neuropsych evaluation. Which showed clear cut brain involvement (previously undetected stroke) and significant loss in cognitive, reasoning and executive functioning skills. Mom had the abilities of an 8 year old.

I know dad's gp says nothing is wrong. So did my mom's doctor.

It takes a specialist to sort this stuff. Your dad CAN'T try any harder. He can't change.

Either accept that and/or get yourself help to accept it.

Have you ever spoken to dad's GP about the possibility of placebos?

BarbBrooklyn,

Yeh maybe I do need therapy. Not sure its that big a thing in the UK though.....

But you may be right....

Spot on about Dad though. Hes all of these things I just wish he would TRY a little....

Paul, it would be lovely if your dad was a nice, easy-going, generous and understanding older gentleman, one who kept up with the times and understood that antibiotics don't kill viruses.

But he's NOT any of those things.

He's cheap, crafty, manipulative, small-minded, rigid old codger whose mindset is stuck in 1955. I say that because he clearly believes in antibiotics.

When I was a kid (I'm 66) you got a pill everytime you went to the doctor. Folks of my mother's generation (she was born in the 1920's) lived through the pre-antibiotic era and saw siblings die of infections that could now be cured with a week's worth of pill or a couple of injections.

You are mourning the dad that you thought you had (the wonderful, self-sacrificing one that he told you he was).

Once your wife started to point out the truth to you, the veil was lifted and you realized that you were being played.

Therapy can help with this. You need to develop better coping skills and a better story line in your own head so that you can have some peace.

I'm not sure why you are so resistant to the idea.

margaret - crazy I know. He wont listen to anyone - hes got this idea in his head. Hes always been like this - his attitude is "if you're ill the doctor gives you a pill, its their job to sort you out". Of course, its not that simple.

As I said before my wife is a District Nurse. She says GP do it all the time because its less hassle. If they prescribe (even if they are 95% certain its pointless) then patient is happy and mostly they get better on their own. If they refuse, patient gets upset, patients family want to know why they're elderly relative is being ignored, then there's the slight 1% chance that antibiotics would have worked and now they've got worse. So easy option taken.

Would Dad fall for someone who believes him. No I dont think so. If I said I needed £1000 for life saving medical treatment he'd give me £500 and say he wanted to keep the rest. Hes that tight!

Polar - Holiday to Florida? Flights booked recently for end of Aug. 18 days to be robbed blind by a big mouse lol.

Although it is my birthday next weekend too. Will be going out with family too but next Saturday is BIG rugby game in Cardiff (Wales Vs Scotland). I know you guys don't really do rugby in the USA so you? Its life or death in Wales. Even bigger game this weekend Vs England. Our hated neighbours lol!

I've seen tailgate parties for NFL on TV but I guess its not such a thing to go to the bar and watch the game on TV and get drunk? Also, (and I've only been to Tampa) the grounds are outside the city center (downtown) usually?
We're lucky in Cardiff, the stadium is right in the city center so it gets crazy with all the bars. 100,000 people they reckon usually in the city.

Paul, to quote yourself ‘Surely EVERYONE knows for a cold you don't need a doctor?’ But surely everyone also knows that antibiotics don’t cure a cold? And you reckon he just loves the doctors giving him antibiotics. What’s going on with the medical system?

My best guess for your dear father is that if you manage to get him some support, he immediately falls victim to a leech-like lady who says that she believes everything he says. What would you think about this? Relief that the pressure is on someone else? Or anger that someone else gets his dosh, after all you have been through?