It's been a hard week....

My son in law comes from a VERY dysfunctional family. He grew up watching his dad, who was married to an insane woman (really) who constantly told him he was wrong about everything and never let him "get his way" with anything.

My son in law now seems to feel that in any situation (child rearing, furniture arranging, food shopping) if he doesn't "get his way" he has somehow "lost". It's taken my daughter some time to catch on to this, and they will be going to marriage counseling to try to work on this issue.

So the thing is, your dad is manipulating you, not so much to get his needs met, as to "win".

The solution is to not play the game. Take your marbles home. Don't explain. Offer two choices. If he won't make a choice, tell him goodbye.

He KNOWS how to get his needs met, apparently. Let him con someone else.

The doctor comes to your house???? In what country does this happen, please? I want to go there! 😯

jacobsonbob - ha ha must be approaching triple figures now the times I've phoned him or hes phoned me when I'm in the car on hands free. Hes started his usual, or started going off about something and I've literally hit the red button to shut him up.

Gives me 5 mins to calm down because hes wound me up and think of what to say to him. Then I call back and say "sorry signal is bad around here".

Rosyday - I know he deliberately manufactures these situations to get what he wants. He deliberately gets me to only get about £20 worth of food at a time (even though hes got a chest freezer you could get £100s in), so he can use the "no food" excuse the week after.

Thing is of course I'll visit him anyway. BUT his behaviour winds me up so much sometimes I don't want to visit him EVER. It has a negative effect.

I think the worse for me is knowing he knows sometimes how much grief he causes me, and deliberately avoids the alternatives that may be easier, so he can get his own way.

Example. Hes badgering me to visit this weekend - got no food got no food, make an effort, you'll have to visit or Im stuck etc.

I want to but I've got things out of my control (car problems, wife working) which may make it impossible. Got to be careful - if I say yes I'll visit then even a force 10 hurricane is no excuse to cancel in his eyes. (He doesn't get "on call" that I do. The fact that, I can't predict it, and that, if up all night working, I aint visiting 11am next day). He wants me to phone him Saturday to let him know if I'm visiting Sunday

I know my brother visits saturday so hes hedging his bets here. If his plan to get me to visit Sunday fails then he'll ask brother to do some shopping on Saturday so hes not actually left with no food. Clever eh? Of course, if his plan comes together job done and hes got what he wanted. He'll even tell me hes not been out of the house for days. (Caught him loads of time where brother has posted pic of him in car on facebook, next day hes feeding me the "not left the house for days", "stuck in" etc)

As you've said he so used to getting people to what he wants. For years, hes had an attitude that he can have and opinion on anything and tell people what to do. I get all sorts. "Why are you wasting money on that?", "Why are you going there on holidays again?". Best one ever (I was 46, wife 42 when we had our daughter) - "Why did you have another child? They cost money and you're both too old". He honestly thought we should listen to his advice on this. Can imagine my wifes face!!!!

Paul, here's another simple option to consider when your father calls with a lot of "demands"--"Sorry Dad, someone's at the door [with a delivery, etc.]!" or "Sorry Dad, 'nature' is calling!" (or the equivalent where you live) You HAVE to get off the phone right now--nice talking to him, love him, goodbye. You find a reason to interrupt his call when you can't reason with him.

DesertGirl - yeh you're right. Teen son 16 with aspergers, daughter is the 5 year old. Big gap!

Know what you mean. In the past I've ignored his calls because he will phone every day to badger me if I've said no to something. Its crazy.

Yes I should order food one day and let him lump it or like it.

JoAnn - you're right. I've told him that I have to consider everyone else. Hes told me he expects me to put him first? I've told him no can't happen.

The surgery thing is crazy. He moans they don't come when he wants them when they shouldnt be coming at all. Hes even asked me to phone them to "tell them" what time to come.....

I agree more you do for him the more he needs....

Paul, I feel for you. I had the female version of your father for 20 years after my father died. Those who tell you he will not change are correct. The only change is coming from you. Countrymouse has good suggestions as always. Read them. When you decide how much time you can give your father, stick with it. Don't make excuses to him. He will explain why your life needs don't matter. Just use the broken record method. " Gee Dad, sorry you are running low on food (ha!)I will make a grocery run for you on my next scheduled visit." "Yes, I know. Make a list and I will do that on my next scheduled visit." Do not drop everything and run. He will survive. He knows the alternatives and chooses not to use them. He wants you to upend your life so that he does not have to make any changes to his. You will feel guilty. He's trained you well, but it's not legitimate guilt. You are a good son and a good father and husband. You have a right to your own life. As for the people who tell you how you should doormat yourself and be grateful that "you still have your father". Bullocks! You have a manipulative bully and you must protect yourself. If you learn how to truly set limits, you might even like him better.

Hi, Paul. I'm glad you've found that venting here gives you some relief. I think that's a very important function of this forum! With one son with Asperger's and a 5-year old, you certainly have plenty on your plate!

In the last paragraph of your OP you say: "I've tried setting boundaries, I've said no can do, I've tried ignoring, I've tried just not doing." What you do not say, but imply, is that none of these strategies is "working," in the sense that they are not successful in changing your dad's behavior and making the relationship easier for you, hence your frustration. Sounds like you feel stuck.

Would it help to lower your expectations? That might sound counter-intuitive, but bear with me a moment. You already have experience along these lines. Consider your younger son. You must have all kinds of patience with him. You don't expect him, say, to make his bed as well as you make yours. You don't expect him to be able to drive. He is what he is - barely out of babyhood - and you accept him just for what he is, unconditionally. As for your older son, same thing. I also have a child on the spectrum. I don't know what your boy's limitations or challenges might be, but you accept him unconditionally as well.

Maybe you could try to realize that your dad, likewise, "is who he is." Nothing you do is going to change his behavior. All you can do is change your behaviors and strategies to enable you to survive with dignity, serenity and a lack of guilt. There have been many good suggestions here. Pick some and implement them. Then once you know you've done your best, move on with your own life, just as you do with your sons.

For example. If your younger son throws a fit because he wants to eat a whole bag of candy, would you be eaten up with guilt because you said no? Of course not. You know what's best. And then if your older boy needed help with his homework while the younger was screaming, what would you do? You'd ignore the screaming kid and help the older, right? So, if your dad's having a fit and your boys need you, it's okay to ignore dad and take care of your boys. Order groceries. Pay for them on line. If he doesn't want to let a stranger in, have them put them on the porch. He can bring them in after the driver leaves. Or not. His choice. You've done what you could. If he leaves the food out there to rot, the more fool he!

Peace to you, and blessings to you all.

I reread your back posts. If Dad can go to the betting parlors, He can do for himself. Did your Mom give into his whims, if so, thats part of the problem.

You have a life. Your life is your wife and children, one of which has challenges. Tell Dad he is lucky that he has time on his hands. You don't. Your work a 40 hr plus job. Sometimes being called in on ur time off. When you get home you are tired. Your wife is tired and her health problems don't help. Then its a child that needs you there. Tell Dad your job and family are your priority. That he is quite able to do for himself. And he needs to do it. I would also call the surgery and tell them Dad is perfectly able to come in for his blood draw. That they are enabling him by coming to him. The more he does for himself the better. Brother also should understand, if he doesn't u need to tell him too.

I am a firm believer in showing someone how to do or pointing them in the right direction. I will not do it for them if they are capable. I have a friend/classmate that moans and groans. You suggest but she always has an excuse why that wouldn't work. She needs rides to appts but won't call for the Senior bus. Right now I am pissed at her because she left a nasty message about how she wasn't invited to two luncheons and thanks for not telling her, I guess I am not wanted nd a burden. First she had her info all screwed up. Second when I tried to return her call it went to a FULL voicemail. So I texted her I had no idea what she was talking about. And I didn't. The one luncheon she was talking about was another class that I don't attend. The other luncheon was non existent. She has a cell with Data. She can go on check her emails and Facebook to see what is going on. She chooses to complain. Does this sound like Dad? Yes, she is homebound with health problems. But she expects too much from people.

When Dad whines, tell him sorry to hear that Dad then try to change the subject.

Paul, I'm prescribing a two week break from your dad.

Make something up if you need to. Just tell him you're not available at all for the next 2 weeks.

Then stick to. Dont answer or return his phone calls. Don't explain. Just step back.

He uses Fear Obligation and Guilt to manipulate and control you. Just stop playing the game for a fortnight and see if it changes anything inside you.

smlingtulip - Yes we've had numerous instances of fake chest pain. His GP now refuses to visit him at home. Same with ambulances - they now come 24 hours later.

I've stopped running to him when he says hes ill - number of times I get there and he forgets hes supposed to be ill. Many many times.

And you may have seen the once where his GP refused to admit him to hospital which he disagreed with. So next day he banged his head on the cupboard and got his wish. At the time the hospital said it was 99% sure if was self-inflicted.

Great eh?

Not funny but one day hes going to say hes ill and we're going to find him dead and we're going to say "Oops he was this time".

ACaringDaughter - seriously this is what you think?

Don't you think I already visit him, try to take him out etc. Didn't you read the part where I explained my family situation.

Dad would love me to visit him without my 5 year old in tow believe me.

Unfortunately, in the UK, Social Services get a little upset when you leave 5 year olds home alone. Also, they might not be too impressed if I neglect my teenager whos got Aspergers who then goes and causes trouble.

Did you miss the time I'd had 2-3 hours sleep because I'd been on call with work, yet he blackmailed me into driving up to visit him for no good reason? Perhaps I should have stayed longer - Im sure my employer would understand too!

Sorry in the real world its not all unicorns and rose petals....

Barb - hes my Dad but yes you are right. When my wife moans about how he behaves shes not wrong!

CM - yes I heard that too about Chicken Tikka Masala. He definitely wont eat that!

Oh the dreaded fake "illness". I can't stand that one! It's been used on me so many times over the years that I actually get a pit in my stomach knowing it's coming.

Then when they get really sick, you find yourself lacking the compassion you should feel because they have worn you out with guilt for many years.

As a parent my goal was to raise healthy happy children not tear them down. Your Father is tearing you down, making you feel guilty and putting a heavy weight on your shoulder.

I love what BarbBrookyn said about telling your Father you can not do it and give him two options. You are still taking care of him and making sure his needs are met. I am afraid if you don't put your foot down, this will only get worse over the years.

I experienced the same problem with Mom’s medications. I thought she was being careless, forgetful and negligent, but I was wrong. It turns out that she didn’t really need all her prescribed medications and they were making her sick. Look at what he’s taking and read the pharmacy printouts or the PDR. Are there any negative interactions? Doctors over prescribe, adding drug after drug, sometimes unnecessarily. Some of these may be causing him harm, (damaging his vital organs and/or adding more medical problems) or just causing him to feel lousy. If his practitinoers are less qualified or older, they may not be on top of the drug interactions and latest treatment methods. The knee-jerk reaction is that we should just keep taking whatever is prescribed, but this is worth another look now since your dad hasn’t been taking them anyway. My mom’s prescribed meds should have been setting off computer alerts and pharmacy fire alarms (with both dangerous and uncomfortable interactions), but the docs just wrote them, the pharmacy just filled them and she just collected them. Fortunately she sensed they made her sick and was not regularly taking them. Once I finally listened to her concerns (wish I would have done that sooner) I worked with new doctors to reduce the list - and Mom’s health and well being improved.

Alternatively, if you confirm your Dad absolutely needs them all and this is a memory problem, you can pay a healthcare worker to stop by and make sure he’s appropriately taking them. That will give you peace of mind and your Dad should feel healthier too.

Regardless of the medication situation, find the time to visit your dad. Put down your cell phone and leave your kids at home. Take your Dad to his favorite restaurant. Take him to a movie. Hug him. Ask him for advice. Let him know that you are grateful— he gave you life, a home, fostered your education, your hobbies and your intellectual development. If your dad wasn’t perfect, he did his best. He is crying out for you.

These problems of yours won’t last forever—- your Dad won’t be there forever. He probably senses that your time together is slipping away, and he wants to spend his precious time- with you.

if my response is just making you irritated, then you should look into a nursing home. There your Dad will find medical assistance, nursing care and companionship. That is better than the alternative—loneliness and neglect.

It sounds like he's what we call an EP (entitled parent). I really hope I'm wrong on this one but you should know that EP's are good for one thing: guilt trips. The only thing you can do is stick to your guns and do the best you can. We're rooting for ya!

Your dad is a bit of a prick, isn't he?

So let him go on a hunger strike. Why would it matter?

Paul, I GET that complaining about him makes you feel better! I just wonder if a bit of time spent looking into who is arranging/managing his care ( as CountryMouse suggested) wouldn't pay off.

In your shoes, with a parent who is as much of a jerk as yours is, I'd be tempted to change my phone number and walk away.

It is a Well Known Fact (tr. urban myth) that the British national dish is chicken tikka masala, and has been for some decades now. I hope he's up to speed on his patriotism.

Thanks all - yes I know I moan and I let him get to me and I know I've got to change because he won't. BUT I'm on the way honestly - better than I was.

I dunno it sort of helps when he does something, I moan on here and people comment. Is that weird? lol.

NeedHelpWithMom - Yep. Its just me and brother. He lives with his GF a mile away. No kids to look after. (Hes got kids from several relationships - long story!). I live 20+ miles away. Got teenager with Aspergers, 5 year old, and wife has health problems. You can see why I get a bit annoyed when brother does something, then implies its my turn. He did it the other day - text me "I normally go up Dads Saturday am, I can't this week, so you'll have to go". Like I can drop everything at 24 hours notice!

Honestly, if I ordered groceries to his door he'd refuse them. He would. If it came to it that no-one did his shopping he'd go on hunger strike, make himself ill then say it was our fault. Really he would.

Pizza. Nah wont eat it. If its not BRITISH food he won't eat it lol. Pizza you've got no chance. Foreign food.....Our 5 year old daughters favourite food is spaghetti bolognese - hes said in the past we shouldn't feed her "foreign rubbish like that".

Paul, you need to practice tough love. It's easier said that done I know but what is the alternative? I used to be a doormat. I was so eager to be liked. After my Mom passed four years ago, a change came over me. Not because of my Mom. She wasn't demanding at all. But my siblings? A whole other story. They're lack of help with my Mom's care, finances, just visiting her, really opened my eyes. They've seen a change in me. I see their puzzled expressions now when they are around me. "What's up with her?" they are thinking. They've never expressed it to me personally but I know what they are thinking.

Continue to help your father Paul but love yourself enough to not be anyone's scapegoat. It's not worth it. Maybe to your father it is but if he isn't showing you appreciation that is due then maybe he needs a wake-up call.

Paul,

I really do feel your pain! I have been there. My younger brother is a mechanic, heart attack many years ago. Seems to be okay now, thank God. Same thing, manual labor.

My husband works in an office too, electrical engineer. I did various jobs, store manager, office jobs, teacher, etc. We have both have health issues as well, surgeries and so forth.

I quit working to be with mom. Guess who lovingly does more for my mom? My husband and I do! Always have.

My other brother is a retired cop, (captain). The authority figure in the family. Try and deal with that! I am not trashing cops but after many years on the job, he’s jaded. Oh my Lord, never discuss religion or politics with him!!!

Heart issues (died and doctors brought him back). Multiple bypass and stents so he does have a valid reason for not helping but before his heart problem, he didn’t help. Still finds time to do his things though. One brother is deceased, don’t even get me started on him.

These brothers always did their own thing and were horrible with financial matters and always sponged off my parents. Before I married, I worked two jobs when I had to.

Oh, and my brother in D.C. is an investment banker with more money than God and has never helped either when he lived here or when he visits. No hands on help ever.

He visits once a year to brag about all his money! I don’t begrudge anyone a good life but he is obnoxious! Always has been, left New Orleans from Tulane university to New York, then D.C. Sure, he earned everything he has and deserves it all but he isn’t humble.

He is lucky to be alive too. He just survived two major heart attacks. He works 80hrs a week. Stress will kill us! My brothers are cats with nine lives surviving their heart issues.

Has a yacht he never gets to use. Owns property all over the world. One of those middle aged men who drives a sports car! Okay, I can be sarcastic! Haha.

Oh, and people always referred to me as the little princess, being the only girl. Are you freakin kidding me? I am a ‘girly girl’ but I could climb a tree just as well as my brothers. I kept up with them.

I came from the generation that spanked their kids. I was tiny, still am and I was fast! So if my dad wanted to spank me, I would run outside. I could run around the house three times to his one round and he couldn’t catch me. I wore him out.

Wear your dad out! Call his bluff! I see myself in you with the annoying brother, the demanding parent but I am rooting for you, all the way. You can make these changes, one step at the time. Look, I have goals to reach too.

I’ll be damned if I am giving up. I live in a great city. New Orleans is fun. One day I will get back to the Jazz and Heritage Fest, go out to eat, so many other things. Most importantly, enjoy my husband and grown children.

I am married to a saint! But don’t think for a minute this crap doesn’t put a strain on a marriage. Of course it does. It isn’t fair to my husband. Thank God he loves me and I adore him. He is my rock!

Hey, ask anyone here. I am not a Pollyanna! I get grumpy, pitch a fit, vent here, try as best as I can to move forward with ‘a little help from my friends’ on this forum. Stick to this forum like glue. It will get better in time. Nothing is overnight. I realize that.

I don’t want to trash your dad but he is being unreasonably stubborn.

You probably know his grocery list like I know what my mom likes. Buy it, send it over and I bet if he was hungry he would accept the delivery. Geeeez, if not then he is an old geezer that doesn’t deserve a wonderful son like you.

Just had another idea, have a pizza delivered! LOL

Take care, Paul.

Paul, You seem to want your dad's end of the conversation to change. It won't.

He will continue to bully you and continue to refuse the help offered.

Accept that as a fact.

Paul, if you spent one tenth of the amount of time you currently spend on resenting your father on practical help for him instead, he'd think it was his birthday and you'd save yourself hours. Not to mention a possible ulcer.

1. In a typical week, how much time would you be *happy* to give to his support?
2. Ring-fence that time, and timetable it.
3. Use it for whatever.
4. The rest of the time, either don't take his calls or use one of the many, many techniques available to cut them short. Stop getting into annoying circular discussions with him.

As things are, you trail around feeling wretched and put-upon AND your father doesn't get the sympathy he actually does deserve on account of his age and infirmities. Everybody loses. Change it.

Need help with mom - Oh yes brother lives literally 5 mins away!

BUT he does manual work (hes a welder) and Dads "gets" this. He worked in a factory. So brother does 12 hour shifts and is "tired". On the other hand I work in an office so it must be easy..... Jeezzzzzzz

I've heard all excuses for the shopping. There is a minimum order quantity of £40 I think. He gets me to do about £15 worth of shopping (his chest freezer is about 25% full) and say he doesnt want to spend any more. Its a scam to get me to do it more often of course.

Hes said in the past if anyone knocks his door with groceries he'll refuse to take them in because he doesnt want them delivered by a stranger. Again, another scam from him.

All - yes I do now say "take your meds" or "call the doctor" or "no I can't do that".

He will respond with "why can't you visit" I'll tell him I'm busy. Next day he'll call back "so why can't you visit" and on it goes.

Then I ignore his phone calls...

I've known for a long time that Dad is a bully. If he doesn't get his way he will do everything in his power to harrass, nag, guilt trip etc.

Paul,

I have the same issues with siblings. I have no idea why they are excused by our parents. The excuses mom gave me were never rational for them not helping. The excuses my siblings gave were never rational either. So be it.

I love the grocery delivery idea. I take care of my mom, she can’t be left alone. I have a 30 year old daughter that is very sick, and doesn’t even drive anymore. (on disability) She takes public transportation to and from places.

On weekends, I occasionally can help her out when my husband is home by going to the grocery for her, especially rainy days. But I had to sign up with Shipt grocery delivery for her. It’s reasonably priced for the convenience! So much per month and if you buy $50 or more it is free delivery.

There are a few grocery delivery services available. He shouldn’t object to that. It’s a fair and viable solution. I do tip them well because my daughter says they are very good and I believe in tipping for good service. So, I throw in an extra $20. They are fantastic. If they are out of an item they ask if you want to substitute something else, etc.

I let my daughter fill out online what she needs due to a special diet for health but maybe you could trick him. Tell him, dad, I have a pen and paper and I need to write down your list now to save time. Then go online and order it, give his address and have it sent. Would that work? Can you use his credit card? Or will he reimburse you? Or is it worth it to just spring for the groceries once in awhile like I do? My daughter needs financial help once in awhile, due to medical expenses, she runs short occasionally.

Just trying to help. You obviously know your dad better than me. He may blow a rod, but so what! He will blow a rod no matter what you do.

I can’t always please my mom but I am learning to do what I can, (which is a lot), she lives with me, but some things that she desires, don’t get done and that’s okay. She pouts, grumbles, throws it up in my face, all of that and it drives me crazy but it drives me more crazy doing all this stuff that isn’t necessary.

I used to run back and forth like you when mom lived in her home and my brother lived right down the street! I think he screwed up getting her groceries so he wouldn’t have to do it all the time and she would ask me.

Same with doctor appointments, I stayed with her until finished, took her to lunch and so forth. My brother would drop her off, be late picking her up, Whatever...can’t change parents or siblings but we can change ourselves. I still have work to do. I am a work in progress. I’ve learned a lot on this site. I am grateful. I am more at peace now. Oh, I still whine but not quite as much. The people on this site have been so sweet to put up with my crap but I have also asked them to give me a good kick in the rear when I needed it. Haha.

I feel your pain! Really, I do and I hope it gets better for you. Many hugs!

This is from another poster, CMagnum, replying to another poster.

"In setting a boundary, you are seeking to protect yourself, not change the other person. Just tell them calmly how it is going to be and leave it at that."

Boundaries - he doesn't have to like it.

"that does not work for me" and if he starts guilt or manipulation or whatever gets to you "sorry, gotta go - love you" and hang up.

He does not have to like the boundaries - he will not. You will