FIL's showtiming with family at Christmas and New Year's Eve has thrown the plans to downsize him into flux. What do I/we do?

Update: None of us - not FIL, not hubby, nor I - went to the family gathering! None of us felt up to it just for different reasons. FIL wasn't feeling well. Hubby and I didn't want to risk things getting uncomfortable with or because of niece-in-law. And it felt good to put ourselves - our wants, our needs - first, for a change. Prior to niece-in-law's treachery, hubby and I would have summoned up the energy and told FIL that we're all going to go and enjoy some family time. Instead, we accompanied FIL to services and invited him out for a light lunch and called it a day. It was a pleasant change of attitude and change of pace and none of us were exhausted by spending hours around family members who all, in their own ways, can be a bit much.

NYDaughterInLaw reading your update I’m blown away by the audacity of this niece-in-law and could go down all kinds of rabbit holes with her behavior but what strikes me as most important here is that you, your husband and his father not be severed from family and these family gatherings because of her. Don’t let her take this big close family away from any of you, particularly your FIL at this time in his life. You don’t really know how much longer he will be able to participate in these gatherings and don’t want his memories to be negative. Thats exactly what I would tell any relatives wanting to talk about it at the family party too. If they want to discuss it you (or your husband) welcome it at another time. Then if they do pursue that tell them they can spend a few days with FIL and then give their educated views on the subject. The last thing you want is for him to have to move but you all always knew that if the time came when he could no longer live there he would have to and he chose his son as his POA for a reason. His needs, safety and best life possible now and in the future are exactly what’s being considered here by his son and POA maybe they could offer him some support.

Sorry got off on a tangent here, it angered me more as I wrote but actually I wouldn’t even give the Neice-in-law enough time of the day to say this to her, now her husband is another story. But still not at the family event, if your husband wants to go somewhere with his cousin to clear the air or make a date to get together and do that I think that’s more than reasonable.

So I completely understand overpowering personalities and people thinking they get to provide input without having any clue what they are talking about. We have one of those too. Never see the person and think they know everything there is to know. If you will forgive the comparison -that is like thinking you know everything there is to know about a reality tv personality from watching their edited lives on tv for an hour a week and reading about them on the internet. In other words -you don´t even have a small % of the real story.

I am sort of blown away by the sheer audacity of your FIL´s nephew´s wife thinking she gets any vote whatsoever. I understand wanting to advocate for someone. But to come in and think you are going to overturn the entire structure that their POA and their own adult child has put in place - that takes some serious gumption.

To my way of thinking - this is not a wrinkle. She goes back to where she came from for another year and you go back to the original plan and if she interferes your DH tells her to stick her opinion where the sun doesn´t shine. Because honestly my tolerance for nosy people who are not willing to put their money and time where their busybody mouths are is wearing very thin these days. She will have an opinion about everything you do. And quite frankly - if you change your plan because of what she is saying right now - I can only imagine that she will think she has a say in everything going forward.

Here is the thing - if your FIL wanted his niece-in-law in charge of his affairs - she would be his POA. If she was really concerned about him - you would see her more often than the holidays. If she was really concerned about him - she would be asking what she could do to help - not offering useless platitudes about his autonomy and respecting his father. Because he IS respecting his father. He is doing what he feels is best for his father for his entire future. He is looking at the big picture. And she is sticking her nose in where it doesn´t belong.

You know what I have discovered. I found this interesting. I have been married to my DH for almost 30 years. In the first 10 I talked to FIL´s younger sister exactly once. In the second 10, he called her and told her we (BIL/SIL/DH and I) were abandoning him after his surgery to go on vacation and he needed someone to come take care of him. (reality: he intentionally scheduled elective surgery 3 weeks prior to our planned and paid for vacation together. He was completely independent at this time. He needed a RIDE to and from the surgery. It turned into a little more than that. We were running back and forth to help out some but he was ok on his own and by the time we left he should have been 100% fine. She FLEW down to take care of him without talking to us first because he gave her a sob story. I was the one who picked her up at the airport. She got an earful) In the third 10 years - when he became completely dependent on live in caregivers BIL and SIL (we are backup) I have talked to her so many times that I have lost count. While she is always super nice - it is ALWAYS in a passive aggressive way from a 10 hour drive away. She has LOTS of thoughts on how we care for him. But she has no idea how bad things have gotten and is unwilling to really understand and believes he is still in the same shape he was when she was last here, because he says so. In spite of what we tell her.

I say that to say this - I have known the woman for 30 years. She has almost no use for ANY of us until she wanted to insert her opinions from a distance in to how we are caring - or NOT caring for FIL. What is the saying - opinions are like....... everyone has one and they usually stink.

Just because she has an opinion doesn´t mean you have to take it.

You know this family and whether that kind of thing is something they might do, but going into this mentally prepared for that possibility is better then being blindsided.

Now that I'm re-reading the responses to my latest update, I'm wondering if y'all are thinking that this isn't going to be a get-together but rather a family meeting and an ambush.

To clarify that this is not a family meeting but rather a family gathering or get together - like a party, with food and stuff. Lots of family are invited, who have never crossed the line or inserted themselves into my FIL's business.

Sorry too many messages to read so sorry if I am repeating. Has FIL been tested formally diagnosed with Dementia? Does DHs POA say he needs 1 or 2 doctors to say he is incompetent to make his own decisions to be effective, if so get him evaluated so he can make it effective. If Immediate, its in effect.

Really don't see how a niece-in-law thinks she can override ur husband. Your husband needs to go to this meeting and you for support if he needs it. Before any discussion starts he needs to lay the law down. "I have no idea why niece-in-law feels that she needs to put her nose into my families business. For all of your information I have been doing things for my Father for a decade. He is good at "showtiming", look that up if you don't know what that means. He has been in mental decline for awhile now. None of you see him on a daily basis 24/7. We do. I am his POA and his son. I and my wife are taking good care of him and its no ones business what we decide for him to keep him safe. I would love your support in this to make Dads transition much easier for him." Then look at NIL and tell her to stop sending these emails to Dad because he does not understand them and all she does is upset him. If she continues he will be seeing a lawyer. Then walk out.

She can call APS and they will find Dad is being taken good care of. But your husband has to put a stop to this nonsense. And its nonsense, she really is not a relative by blood. Really, why does she feel she even has a right to butt in. Block her from his email and phone if he has his own. Keep copies of those emails. I may even look into a restraining order against her.

Not over-reacting. This has gone far enough.

Stop being polite. Unless of course you just want DH to resign POA and step away, and let the vultures in.

If, as you'd said before, FIL is elderly and there is worry about his running out of funds, then his money needs to be invested safely and transparently, with the bulk of it in guaranteed (FDIC or government backed) instruments.

There is a recent bogleheads thread on this.

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=396012

Nydil, you know what "financial advisors" are, right?

They are salespeople who charge their "clients" 1% per year or more of their assets under management.

If FIL has 500k in brokerages, that's 5k per year--not counting front loads, 12b's, and the charges and capital gains that result from churning.

If one expects the markets to gain 4% this year, that's 25% of his expected return. Every year.

Lawyer, NOW.

AND go to www.bogleheads.org for good financial guidance.

Holy crap, I think I'd invite my lawyer along to this meeting, or at the very least have them send a strong cease and desist letter to all involved 😠

Another update: the other day while my husband was helping his dad on his computer, my FIL opened his email and asked my husband why niece-in-law sent him "all these emails" including the one that she wrote to my husband - the one that was the subject of my original post. My husband was stunned. She had written several emails to other members of the family stating that they should not allow my FIL to be downsized, and that her financial advisor should be brought in to help my FIL. She copied my FIL on all of those emails and excluded my husband, who is his son, his POA, and his caregiver for over a decade! FIL was confused and didn't understand at all what was going on.

Now I found out that we're all invited to a family gathering this weekend and this niece-in-law will be there. I do not want to go. I do not want to see her. I do not want to talk to her. I do not want to "play nice". I also do not want to cause a scene. Help!!!

Update: Hubby, to keep the NIL from feeling slighted and badmouthing him/us had he ignored her, sent a short reply thanking her for her sharing her perspective on FIL and looking forward to seeing her at the next family gathering. No acknowledgment of her opinions. No indignation at her presumptuousness. No sharing any information about my FIL's reality and situation. I doubt she's smart enough to realize how dismissive of her he was.

Thank you for taking the time and sharing your perspectives. I appreciate all of you!

NIY,

If I may be facetious for a moment, you could nominate her for an Oscar!

It sounds like your NIL puts on a good performance! LOL 😆

Sadly, people like her believe their own BS.

You and your husband aren’t dumb enough to buy her crap. She will need to find a different audience.

Your sentence that your husband, his son, is POA, says it all. That duty, obligation is all that matters. Discussion with others will lead to chaos and confusion.
All of this assumes that FIL is diagnosed. If he is not then he is in charge of his own decisions, and there is nothing to be done. When his money runs out he will apply for medicaid like millions of others have to/have had to in our country.
If the Father in law won't listen at all to reason, and the son doesn't wish to serve in the capacity of POA I would just suggest he resign and give all this grief to someone who is willing to bear the strain and heartbreak of it.
I am so sorry. There is nothing to be done when someone isn't responsible, no matter what their age and mentation. Either there is someone with the capacity to address it or there isn't. I sure don't envy you this mess.

Sorry, I didn't read all the answers, the drama was too heavy...

Unless your husband is moving him to a cardboard box under a bridge, as POA he doesn't have much to worry about - except a pissed-off millennial... they are always p-o.'ed...

You don't need to include the niece in your planning process. Invite her to spend a week or two with dad. If she accepts, it will be good for both of them, and maybe an eye-opener for her. If she declines, then you did your best...

It seems like you and your husband are managing a difficult situation with love, compassion, and responsibility. That's the best any parent could hope for because it means they got their job done!

I feel for your niece's parents as they get older!

Hope that helps!
~BRAD

NYDaughterInLaw: Inform NIL that everything put in place by your husband will remain status quo.

The wife of a nephew has no authority in the affairs of your FIL.
your husband is to be commended on finding the new place. Move forward with all plans. Send her photo of him happy in his new place.
your FIL will not remember the conversation on the holiday. I suppose a familiar holiday can bring back the energy to function better.
just reassure your husband he is making choices out of care and love.
did wife of nephew offer to care for him in her own home?

NY, I just read through this thread and I’m going to actually, right now, give you a small standing ovation for what you wrote:

”Caregiving needs to work for all involved. FIL's choices affect my husband and what affects my husband affects me. My husband's first obligation is to our marriage. Our marriage does not revolve around my FIL. Were my FIL competent to manage his own affairs that would be a different matter”

YOU'VE GOT THIS!!!

If you have worked with an elder care lawyer or accountant who goes over the records occasionally, perhaps for tax reasons, I might use that. Explain that your husband cannot legally discuss his father's finances as he has fiduciary responsibility, however, the records are monitored by (whomever) who believes that this decision is the best for FIL's long-term security. You might say how sweet it is that she is so fond of your FIL and keeps in touch with him. It would be so helpful if she encouraged his accepting the advice of the people handling his finances, as he would be able to adjust to any change better with good support. (My experience with my MIL's care was that there was a lot of unresearched and half thought through spur-of-the-moment advice. Annoying, but getting defensive with them makes it worse.) I would just make reassuring noises to her and thank her for interest in your darling FIL.

Video FIL to produce proof show-timing symptom of dementia. Contact Adult Protective Services to evaluate for placement and start Medicaid application. Take hubby to see Elder Law Attorney if there is any unfinished business that needs addressing. Make appointment to meet with Geriatric Psychiatrist who can review your videos and prescribe medications that will help FIL move into his permanent housing that is affordable.

Block nephew's wife or just put her on "mute."

Consult an elder law attorney to get the facts about the situation. Her husband needs to know how to respond if nephew's wife's attempts to move dad into another place. These attorneys are familiar with both the financial and emotional situations in families. Once your husband has the legal facts he'll have better footing in dealing with the her. Remind him he is his father's DPOA health and only he has authority to make the decision about where FIL should live. Does your husband dread a confrontation when he tells her that legally he's the only one to make these decisions? Practicing the conversation and role playing the conversation with you can go along way in bolstering his point and not letting her hijack the discussion. It could also be settled by sending a copy of the POA to the targeted nursing home. They'll figure out she's not the one to make the decision. The POA is the one who makes the decisions in the loved one's best interest. She has no clue about the financial issues.--she's not paying for it. So often those in the family who aren't lifting a finger to assist the loved one suddenly come around and squawk and argue for a situation that doesn't fit the loved one, but rather their uninformed thoughts about the loved one. Inviting dad to spend a week with her might be enlightening.

I am on team Ignore (or say as little as possible). In our case, it's LO's absent adult son. My lawyer advised that, as far as nosy comments about my LO's finances, as his POA I am essentially a fiduciary and LO's financial matters are confidential - I can't discuss with anyone (except the lawyer, or accountant). If responding maybe something like that might go over better than none of NIL's business (which if for sure is not). Same with health matters. In our case she also advised writing, after the move, "This is your father's address _______. His phone number remains_______." And that's all.

Hello, and thank you for writing us here. From what I gather, here are my comments:

1. The issue seems to be how your husband FEELS about - and allows - other 'family members' to sway his feelings/opinions/decisions. I am not clear on why your husband is so ... easily discombobulated; why does she / others 'push his buttons" --- if you husband has the legal authority to do what is in his dad's best interest. Could you elaborate?
- How do you talk to your husband when / due to his freaking out?
- How does he respond?
- Something is 'running him' to end up 'freaked out' - this is what you / he need to address.
- Your husband needs to learn how to maintain his emotional / psycyhological equanimity / stay focused to pursue what is necessary for the welfare of his dad. This is a learned behavior based on awareness / processing through the 'feelings' that take over and start to control his behavior, i.e., freaking out. He needs to learn how to interrupt these feelings ... (we all do).

Quoted from below: "Email her back and say "Thank you for the feedback. Here are the financials showing that he will be destitute in x years. Here is the financial picture if we move him. I'm planning on going forward with the plan to move him."

Way to consider:
* Show the stats as she is swayed / impressed by the 'in person' connection (as you/many say. She doesn't know his day-by-day behavior/how he is declining. Will providing her this information matter to her? Will it add fuel to the fire she 'enjoys' participating in?
* She may / may not be able to comprehend 'stats' and be blinded by her emotions / recollection based on that one holiday interaction.
* Need to consider WHY respond to her at all. What is point or anticipated outcome that will serve your FIL?

QUOTED FROM BELOW: "He is worried that she will take it upon herself to stop my FIL from downsizing to a one-bedroom apartment..."
* Back to the top of my comments. Why is your husband 'concerned' or triggered by this person?
* Does she have any legal authority to 'stop my FIL from' ... if so, what and how?

By all means, be a support to your husband. He needs you. Help him get out his feelings about this woman and what is triggering him emotionally. He needs to process through it to come out on the other end of feeling confident in his decision making.
- It isn't about convincing her; it is convincing your husband that he is in control, has the control (=legal authority) and knows in his gut he is doing / making the right decisions for his dad.
- Your husband needs to build up his confidence and you can support him in doing that.

Lastly, your husband could be spent, overwhelmed, exhausted (we all know how this goes), in addition to what I call GRIEVING IN SLOW MOTION. Although he may not be aware that he is grieving (or overwhelmed, etc.). Help him get his feelings out and find some (more) balance in his life to offset the stressors.
- We al need that balance which is tricky at times. Your husband is very fortunate in that he has YOU to help him through all this. ... take him out for a date night! Get him a massage.

Gena / Touch Matters

“Thank you for expressing that NIL, I have since talked to my father again in a clear moment for him and reconfirmed that he doesn’t see it the way you do”

I might send this to her and add her husband and or father/mother in law to make sure they are all aware of the exchange too.

The best answer I read is:
Ignore the email and do what you are doing. Don't let her get under your skin. Your husband is DPOA and has his fathers best interest in mind.
Prayers

Continue to do what's best for FIL and disregard the ONE person who disagrees and is not, nor has ever been active in his care. This should not even be in question.

Ignore the niece in law....she doesn't have a dog in this fight. And unless I am missing something, nor does she have any experience in taking care of a family member with cognitive decline.

If you respond, she will think that her words have weight and they don't. My advice is to ignore her.

As far as your dad show-boating...my mom has not managed bills, washed her clothes or prepared a meal in over 12 years. In her minds eye, she just did all of those thing yesterday. That's dementia for ya! Ignore that too.

Dear NY-DIL,

In my email program, there is a smart folder called "A-hole eMails" where all emails with similar content land. Just putting them there feels good.

There is also a block function, which the sender gets put on immediately.
Then I never look at them or read them again. Directly after that is achieved, they get the privilage of being on my block list on my phone. It produces peace and that is something my world needs a extra portion of.

Sometimes when those upsetting tirade emails sit there in your in-box - glowing at you, you can be compelled to re-read them, becoming further upset and investing energy in a futile cause. Stop it. Delete and Block.

She is a nobody and desires attention and is demanding things - with a disgusting sub-text of your husband not being capable of handling things therefore she needs to come and save the day- which is the most upsetting part.

Sharing it with anyone is really just giving it more importance or a certain increase in negative power and having other people invest their attentions and energies on something she has created. That would be investing in her immaturity and negativity.

Delight in the feeling of ignoring her like a pebble on the beach and walk on by.

No answer and no response is justified and no needing to give evidence of ANYTHING. Not.A.Single.Thing.

You and your dear husband can feel confident you know and are doing what is correct for a very long time. This single fact is the primary reason your FIL is a perky old son-of-a-gun and could live 10 more years. Bravo.

Do not let this unpleasantness shake your resolve or confidence - focus on your plan. You have enlisted direct family and professionals which have worked with FIL for decades and know how to crunch numbers. Keep on, keeping on. She has no credence or power in these affairs.

It would be a shame to waste a single key stroke or dial the phone to spend a single second responding to her garbage. It will only give her another opportunity to showtime her arrogance and ignorance. People like her tend to get high from putting other people down. Who needs that endless spiral of nonsense?

Denying her what she craves - attention - will be the juiciest and best way to deal with it. Even if I love the "gotta spare bedroom" line.

My dearest mother always said - "everyone has an opinion but sometimes people deliver it thru the incorrect orifice and you need to ignore those ones sweetheart."

Give your DH a big hug and let him know "we got this, like we have all along - we are a great team and you are doing a really good job".

Wishing you peace and strength and a successful smooth downsizing. There will be a few bumps like always but you got this.

At this point, tell your husband to not share anymore information with the family. Because he has DPOA, doesn’t necessarily means that he has the right to make the decisions him at this time, versus when he can no longer manage on his own. It all depends on what is written. When it is all done, which may mean speeding up or postponing the move for a while, then let the family know. How dare she!!

You don't owe her a damn thing.