How do you place an alcoholic Dad with dementia in a care home if they want him to stop drinking and he won't?

Janny, that is way too much alcohol, of course. And in another post you mentioned that he is also not eating much else. This is in addition to the other saftey concerns you have had, a setup for Wernicke-Korsakoff psychosis, that could mimic dementia, and would be responsive to thiamine repletion. See www.alz.org/dementia/wernicke-korsakoff-syndrome-symptoms.asp for some explanation of this.

Excuse me, I answered your question before reading it in its entire form. Why do you think he needs to go into a home? And I am not so sure you need to jump right into the alcoholic mix if we are talking a light beer habit in the evenings. I still stick with my original advice: talk to his doctor and go to a couple of AlaNon meetings. Thanks.

Thank you all for your responses. I am asking questions and reading your responses in an information gathering way. I agree that I don't want to move dad into a home and either I will take care of him or I will hire help. I met with an attorney today to talk about protecting dad's assets and he said that a lot of caretakers have strokes!! and their own health declines. I am not going to put myself in that position. As much as I love my dad I will hire in home help for him rather than stress myself out so much that my health suffers. It isn't worth it. He does have some assets that we could sell to provide care.
I have started Al Anon meetings and have already learned a lot. I know his drinking isn't my fault and is his choice. It's sad but it is his life. I just want to be prepared, as one poster said, for the if's and when's, and they most likely will happen.
Dad is calling me more and more asking me for help. Today he went to Home Depot and met a couple nice ladies selling solar panels and they were coming to his home to give him information. He called me to ask about it. I told him not to buy anything or sign anything. I called my ex SIL who was nearby and asked her to stay with dad till the ladies left and make sure he didn't buy anything! LOL. She doesn't have that power over him but she could try. Dad left before the ladies got there. He didn't want to deal with it and so he took off!! LOL. (probably to go get beer). My SIL was left to deal with the ladies. So funny, but then again, left to his own devices he could spend money that he shouldn't. Oh well. I am getting the Power of Attorney invoked and hopefully I can stop any wasteful spending on his part.
Thank you all for your help. It really does make a difference, I am reading and taking in everything you say. Even the most negative things I can learn from. God Bless.

Dont put him in a care home take him to AA and they will help him. He is ab le to take care of himself let him be.

I just wanted to address something that I read in the responses.

It doesn't matter if your dad drinks light beer or whiskey. It's still alcohol and it's still an addiction. Alcoholism isn't about what someone drinks or even how often they drink, it's about how the alcohol affects the person. Alcoholics are wired differently than non-alcoholics. Their brain is wired differently. And as an alcoholic your dad doesn't have a choice. He has to drink. I'm sure if he were given the option he would choose to quit because the life of an alcoholic is something out of a nightmare.

Good for you for going to Alanon! You're right, caregivers often fall ill from daily stress and anxiety that never ends. Going to Alanon is doing something for yourself, to keep yourself physically and mentally healthy. You're taking some very positive steps.

Eyerishlass, you are absolutely right and I didn't mean it that way; it is possible to be an alcoholic taking cough syrups as the alcohol source if that's what's handy, though its a little more common for a person who wants to get drunk and stay that way full time to choose stronger beverages. I asked that way more to make sure that it was not a case of a big guy having just 2-3 beers a day which would not necessarily be pushing the limits unless combined with certain meds. I come form a religious background where it is considered OK to use small or moderate amounts of "adult beverages" though not to become drunk, and I'm very aware of the similar religious backgrounds that would hole that no alcohol ever for anyone, alcoholic or not, is the only right path. Janny clearly has her story totally straight though about her dad's drinking.

Janny, Alanon is awesome, and as they will tell you, AA would be awesome but the person can't be forced to go. You can do interventions, you can assemble friends and family who care, and there might be substance abuse treatment options open to him. There is a fine line between non-enabling/detaching and taking reasonable steps to protect a person from themselves when they are either too depressed and/or lack the judgment to do it on their own. Your thinking about it is headed in the right direction.

I'd try to talk to him about the possiblities for going into a home or facility. I'd try to explain the ramifications of his drinking and that he will have to stop cold turkey and that wont be good for him. I'd leave it be for now unless he starts to get too much and bad in terms of getting violent. The facility will have to know about his addiction. Good luck. Hope this works.

I took care of my for 10 years while he drank his way into a black out every night. I tried to find home health care but they wouldn't come because they said they could not safely lift him off the floor (like I would have to, almost daily) One came out and while she was there dad pounded on the wall cause he had once again falled in a drunk stupor. as I tried to (and finally did) get him into a chair, I wondered why she sat idly aside and offered to help. when I got him into a chair, she went over to him and said "Mr Jim, I might be way out of line here and your daughter may kick me out. I am not afraid of you kicking me out because my father was also drunk every night and you might have a fight but at 90 you have no bite. What you are doing to your daughter is not what you want to do to her, I am sure. Everytime she picks you up, she stands to break her back. Literally. I know, because I broke my back for my father. Literally. I cant pick up even 10 lbs. I am the one who assess because I know what to look for. and I know what I see here is that you are going to ---not kill, but totally disable your daughter-- who is going to continue to try picking you up as dead weight until she breaks her back. I am asking you if that is really what you want to do. because to this day, I am still breathing but am still angry at my father, who has since passed, because of what he did to me". Then she turned to me and said "I need to go now".

after that night, I did nothing. I thought a lot but I didn't know what to do. but by the next day, my father didn't remember a thing and I remembered it---still remember it, like it was a minute ago.

My father has since fallen 3 more times and broken 3 bones. I love him and always will and it hurts me that I can no longer take care of him and that he is in a living facility where they watch every beer that he might sneak into his room. I visit him at least every other day and he clings to me and still doesn't understand while at 92 he cannot drink anymore. and I wonder too. why cant I bring him home and just let him drink himself to death. he is miserable and I empathize and it hurts. he is so depressed and has chronic pain and I find the right place for him and I cannot leave him because the rest of my family has and it would be like leaving a part of me. I want to bring him home, but if I do, I would be killing him and doing myself in. as it is, I put one foot in front of the other.....work my full time job...try to keep peace with my husband who alternates loving me and hating me...and know that for whatever reason, I will continue to be there for him for as long as he lives. or as long as I live. whichever comes first.

I guess my bottom line is that IF the ALA let him drink, I wouldn't stop them. but they insist that he doesn't.... his VA doctor wrote in on his charts. he doesn't understand. for godsakes, hes 92. lived this entire life, seen the invasion of Normandy and the blood and guts of battle and took home the bottle instead of drugs to calm his PTSD (undiagnosed, of course, but I figured it out sometime after I reached adulthood). And this is the best we can do for him. no, im not guilty of causing his alcoholism, but neither is he. PTSD is a result of seeing death and living death at an impressionable age, and the country made sure when they dumped the guys out of the backs of ships to take the beaches that that would happen. God bless America and God bless my papa.

Sorry for ranting; thanks for the opportunity.

God bless your papa too. I don't know that drinking oneself into oblivion really makes people happy though, I would not feel bad about keeping an alcoholic from drinking, though denying a little alcohol to someone who is not alcoholic but enjoys it would not be as good. That healthcare worker was brave and good for doing what she did. I'm sure she was torn up inside by the flashback of what happened to her.

According to the 12 steps, alcoholism is defined by powerlessness. You MUST look at the person involved and see if they are actually powerless. Some people drink and act a bit different than when they were totally sober. All too often in my mom's case if she said anything that he disagreed with, my dad would say that "she was an alcoholic". At the same time he drank a lot too and my mom never said anything at all. In short, my dad manipulated the definition of alcoholism to back up what he wanted it to mean as far as my mother was concerned. So, one must be extremely careful before classifying someone as an alcoholic.

Upstream, you nailed it on the head. My aunt too was drinking Miller's beer, 4-5 per day! and eating very little. When I went to get her and bring her to live with my husband and me, she was malnutrition. It didn't take long for me to train her to like Cranberry Ginger Ale better than beer. She hasn't had a beer in nearly two years. I wonder if your Dad might like to be introduced to something different that actually tastes GOOD? Bless you.

Hey Dirty - Thanks for sharing your story! It does not sound like your aunt was drinking a lot, but when it takes the place of food, you can end up with a real mess as you have experienced with your aunt. My mom got so bad all of her hair fell out. My dad is now hooked on virgin drinks (such as margaritas with no alcohol) and Gatorade, and my mom is drinking bottled water all day instead. We are a family of drinkers, so I'm not coming from a puritan position, but when the drinking controls you and you can't live without it, it's time to take back your life!! At any age. For my parents, what they could do in their 50s and 60s no longer worked post-70 and it got real ugly for 2-3 years before it got better....

Im so happy for those whose parent quit drinking. I wish dad would do that. He drinks oj for breakfast and then in the afternoon starts on the Keystone light. He hardly ever drinks water. Ive talked to him and he doesnt want to stop. If something happens znd he ended up in the hospital maybe he could have an experience like others. Time will tell.

Hi Janny - I was in your shoes two months ago and did not expect things to get better. My mom finally hit her rock bottom and realized what her choices were doing to herself and her family. I gave it 2 years to work itself out and had to accept that time would tell. Luckily it did work out for the good. I hope the same for you. It's hard to accept, and a hard position to be in as your parent's child. I wish you the best!

My mother liked her wine. She was in some prescriptions where wine was a no no. First I took away her car keys. She was 84. She didnt really mind because I took her where she wanted to go. But I bought her groceries and didnt buy the wine. She got over it but it took awhile. I would worry about your dad driving more than anything else. He may have an accident and kill himself (problem solved) but who is he going to take with him? So first take away the car keys. Then do his shopping. Maybe you can cut his beer back to a 6pack a day and then further. I would let him live alone but help him out. I'm sure he would rather have that than a nursing home. Falling will be worse with the alcohol but as they get older, they will fall anyway. I kept my mom in her home until she was 90. Then she fell and ended up in the hospital and hospice. She died in July but I am proud of the fact that I was able to keep her in her own home until almost the end.

With age, falls increase in number and severity..
Fallen, frail elders are limp weight; trying to lift them off the floor, or extricating them from between furniture they fall between, can end up with the rescuer injured.
Using a lift is really needed, but often can't fit into the house to use.
Them drinking alcohol, makes it more difficult.
Expecting them to remember anything said or done while they are drinking/drunk, is delusional on the part of those expecting that.
There's a difference between an elder who likes one evening alcohol drink.....and an elder who drinks multiple alcohol drinks per day or evening--or one frail enough that one light beer now causes same impairment as several drinks..
Alcohol causes trouble with many medications, trouble with their overall behaviors, and makes many health conditions worse---if you think dementias are 'fun' to deal with, they're even greater adventure when dementia is escalated on alcohol!
Far smaller amounts cause greater impairment, yet the elders tend to think they can still handle the larger amounts.
[[geez...what's not to love about slow suicide, with the company and co-dependance of your injured kids?]]

Per population, there's a boatload or few of alcoholic or other substance abusing elders...who need care and compassion.
There's compassionately prescribing one short beer or glass of wine per evening, for someone who has no substance abuse history and is Lucid, or someone in hospice;
Compare that to: a long-time closet or social drunk, or one with meds or dementia, which should preclude any further alcohol.
Giving the latter alcohol, is like contributing to the delinquency of minors--with potentially deadly consequences---nothing about that sounds heroic to aid-and-abet.
OTH--if ya wanna help them kill themselves faster--that's one way.
IMHO, there's very little that's 'kind' about alcohol, except maybe helping someone with emotional or mental issues to numb-out, because they haven't been able to get proper help resolving those issues otherwise. For that, there are kinder drugs to offer, which do not cause combativeness or other bad behaviors---those might cause them to stay in bed--but at least calm, and where care can safely be given.
It's a hard thing to do, to suddenly remove booze from a user.
I failed to achieve that w/Mom; many others fail, too....It fails unless or until the person can no longer shop for themselves or get ahold of household supplies, or connive caregivers or guests to get it for them--
--or they get put in a facility that bars all access. Yet even in those, I have seen staff and visitors get talked into getting them some.
Each must decide what is the real goal of allowing the alcohol:
==allowing their dependence and your own co-dependence?
==help them die faster?
==relax tight muscles?
==ease pain not otherwise controlled?
There might be many other reasons.
It's as individual as each elder.
Whatever you decide, be clear about it, and willing to live with it whatever the consequences. Make sure all caregivers are informed and agree, so appropriate care plans can be made and followed.

Chimonger
I hung on every word. I took care of my father for 10 years through his drinking. he had stopped because mom wouldn't let him alone until he did, but as soon as she died, he visited the alcohol store. and became a regular there. I excused his drinking one of the reasons you defined so well "helping someone with emotional or mental issues to numb-out, because they haven't been able to get proper help resolving those issues otherwise" Mom didn't realize that you don't just "stop" without changes whatever is driving you to drink or you become a "dry drunk". I finally realized that I could not take care of him 24/7 and after a drunk (daily) and a fall (frequently) and a bone break (3 times) I guided him from rehab to ALA. He is a dry drunk and at 92 I doubt he will ever be anything else. Sometime after I read all the posts where people are dealing with alcoholics at home, and after I hear how agitated he gets I wonder if I am doing the right thing keeping him there instead of bringing him home. Then I remember the dead weight.. The many nights he fell and me trying to push, pull, drag him into bed. and him not remembering a thing in the am. it only got worse as time went by. he's been in ala for a year now and I doubt he will ever come out of his wheelchair....

This just keeps getting worse and I am tired and so stressed out. My dad has a "lady friend" , for the past 10-12 years. I think I mentioned her before. She's 20 years younger and a widowed, slum lord with 28 properties. He started working for her as her maintenance man as a paid worker but the payment ended about a year after they had been working together. He loves her and wanted to have sex with her and she wanted nothing to do with that.
But she did want his expertise in carpentry, use of all his tools, him being her gofer, use of his trucks, and all he has gotten at times (and most recently) is a few meals.
She is having financial troubles and is moving out of her own home to rent it. She is moving IN to my dad's mobile home which is just 75 feet from his own home.
Dad was told that she is a gold digger, having 3 husbands who have all died, but he is ignoring the warnings.
We tried, this past Sunday, to talk to dad (you remember he is alcoholic too, drinking himself into oblivion every night) , we talked to him in the morning (best time) about possibly putting his assets into a medical protection trust (just in case he ever needed it) and also possibly paying me to help him because it costs us money to drive down there and eat on the road and basically have two sets of necessities. He agreed about the trust, at that time, and said he would rather pay me than pay a professional. Then he went to his lady friends and told her all about the paying me part. He came back home and said "Zoe, said, "DON'T LET THOSE KIDS PUT YOU IN A NURSING HOME! I WILL TAKE CARE OF YOU FOR FREE!" I asked him why he went to her and told her about our conversation and he said he values her opinion.
She is undermining our efforts to help our father.
I talked to an attorney and she said "has she offered to marry your dad yet?" I said "no". She said "she will, when the time is right.".
So, not only do I have this demented, alcoholic dad to deal with, now I get to worry about this woman stealing everything away from him.
I talked to dad's attorney, who couldn't help too much because he is dad's attorney, and he said this is a grey area. Dad is still able to function, seemingly, but he isn't making good decisions. I cannot use the Power of Attorney to alter the trust, he is the only one who can do that. Great. What use is a power of attorney then?
So, dad did offer to deed the properties to my husband and I (there are 2) but there would be horrible tax consequences but he can't understand all this legal stuff. Saying that, I do think we are going to try to show him examples of how much a trust would cost and how much it would cost to pay taxes if he gave it to us. And it still wouldn't be protected from Medical.
If he won't do the trust so I have peace of mind, I feel like just giving up and not going down there anymore. Letting her have him and letting God have it all. I love God and He loves me and if I am to inherit then God can work it all out for me. I love my dad too but I cannot kill myself over him. I am getting so stressed out I can't take a breath. I can feel my eyes bulging out from the blood pressure.

It's all so sad.

This is so very sad. Perhaps you need your own eldercare attorney, if you can afford that. Perhaps you could get guardianship, but it doesn't sound like your dad is truly incompetent, just drunk and mildly demented and infatuated--the trifecta of bad news for the elderly. I think that you may have to put it to dad that if he continues down this road of listening to the lady friend, you're going to leave it all in God's hands and hope that it works out for him, trusting in God and this lady. But that you've given it your best shot and he seems to trust her more than he does you. And walk away. I'm sorry for your troubles and stress.

When/if you can find a way to take your own interests out of the equation, you'll find peace of mind. You can try to control every aspect of his relationship with this woman (even a small part of it), and you'll fail if that's what he really wants to do.

I'd pursue taking him up on his offer to put the house in your husband's name. You're right that there would be consequences, but if you talk with an attorney, he can lead you to the RIGHT trust that would protect his properties from unscrupulous people in his life. It wouldn't be deeded over to your husband, but I'm sure there's a way to do it.

You have any number of things to be concerned about: she could convince him to marry her; she could convince him to borrow against the properties and gift her the money; she could run up credit card debt in his name; and more, I'm sure.

Your POA is meant to be used when a person is incompetent to make his own decisions; not to keep a person from making decisions you don't agree with. Even when those decisions are poor.

If it were me, I'd talk to an attorney about "What kind of trust can we set up that will protect dad's properties from a fraudster?" In the end, though, if dad won't cooperate, there's really nothing you can do.

I agree with the others in that you can try to see if an elder law attorney can advise you, but in the end, your dad still can make his own (bad) decisions. If he does, the best you may be able to do is detach from it all and let him do what he does.

You can't let his alcoholism destroy your own health. Have you tried Al-Anon? The program is comprised of people who are coping with similar situations, so that program could help you. Use the building block of your faith and add to it with support from others who understand.

Take care of yourself,
Carol

My dad is 87, and was up to a bottle+ of fortified sherry most days ( we fought the hard-liquor battle earlier and he switched to wine & sherry). His pattern was similar; sober mornings followed by afternoon/evening drinking. Drinking was a life-time pattern that started years ago with one or two drinks a day. Ten years ago they bought a house close to me, and I was at their home daily to help out, take them places, do yard work etc. As he aged, the drinking increased. We talked him into giving up his car a year ago (I was driving the folks almost everywhere anyway so he wouldn't drive), which then became a never-ending argument about getting a car back. He fell multiple times, and often couldn't get up; either we would drive in to help or my mom would call the neighbor over to help (God bless him). Last summer mom was diagnosed with Alzheimers; in spite of our pleas to Dad that he needed to help her/stay alert to keep her safe, he couldn't. He was in total denial that he had any kind of problem. We had several group meetings with the family doctor who has been on board to counsel him about the drinking; and also talked to them about considering AL. Very long story short, he had a heart attack in February, on the day we took a first visit to an Assisted Living facility. He was in cardiac ICU for 5 days with 3 heart caths, then 3 weeks of in-patient rehab; with no drinking. During this time we moved mom to the AL; then he was discharged directly from rehab to the AL facility too. The hospital team helped coordinate all this when I filled them in on his history; but we had to find the AL facility and a rehab bed at a nearby center. It's been a long tough road, but mom and dad are both beginning to settle in to their new AL home -- and dad has not been able to drink. Over the years we've dealt with all the alcoholic-related issues you can imagine including falls, money scams, one DUI, and car accidents. Since his mid-sixties he survived two additional heart attacks, quad bypass, a major stroke, scalp surgery with skin graft for skin cancer, and other issues. The direct discharge from hospital to rehab to assisted living was the solution for him, mom, and our family. My heart goes out to all of you dealing with these issues. Aging is tough enough without the additional burden of alcoholism. Get the family doctor involved now; talk to his pastor or another counselor. Our state Office on Aging was a good resource. If he has a medical crisis, tell the emergency room team right away that alcohol is an issue. And somehow through it all take care of yourself. My husband and I tried so hard to keep them in their home for as long as we could (while helping with our 91 yr old MIL too) -- but finally realized we couldn't give them the care they needed anymore without losing our own health, our sanity and our marriage. DO NOT think you can move in with parents and solve these issues by yourself. Good luck, and God bless you.

You'll find a variety of responses when you ask ALs about drinking. Personally, when I'm 85 and want my beer and TV, I don't want anyone telling me I can't have it. On the other hand, if I get ornery or loud after a few beers, and mix it up with the other residents, then that has to be dealt with.
So, make sure the AL management aren't 'tea-totallers'. If they are, move him out to a place that will accommodate his desire to drink, but help manage any negative behaviors around it.
I can tell you that in the community I'm associated with, there are residents who happily have several beers a night, not realizing that only the first one is real beer. Same goes for some of our wine lovers. The drinking that residents do in their own apartments is (within reason) their business. Families sometimes have a hard time with this. They may have struggles with their parent's drinking all their lives and, now that they have some authority, can't resist trying to 'fix' mom or dad's drinking problem. I understand where they're coming from, but it's an exercise in futility. Accepting and managing are much better strategies.

Allowing an alcoholic to drink in assisted living also depends on what medications are being given - alcohol does not mix well with many dementia medications. It's not always as simple as "leave me alone and let me have my beer." The AL my parents live in offers a weekly "happy hour" gathering that encourages socializing along with some simple beverages where quantities can be monitored by staff to avoid any serious issues. My parents enjoy these gatherings. Trying to accept and "manage" my dad's drinking while they were in their home caused endless arguments and heartache for my mom. He was not capable of having "just a few" beers. Each families' situation is different, and each must work with medical staff and other care providers to find the "best" solution for the person requiring care.

He is probably set in his ways at this point in time regarding a drink, place him in a private care home. They are available in California for $2,800 a month

If he is in a facility, I assure you, he will not get anything to drink. You should make sure there is a plan in place to help him learn to stop. Sounds like a facility would be the best option where he can be supervised.

It sounds like you're just going to have to have an intervention and someone needs to gain guardianship of him and just buckle down and force him into the home. As mentioned, he won't be able to get alcohol in a nursing home, also just do what needs done even if you have to physically force him. My own bio dad was also a constant drunk pretty much his whole life but at some point he landed in some kind of facility but I don't know how he was eventually placed. I know he had Alzheimer's but I just don't know who put him in the facility or if he was coerced since he had no guardian. I just don't know how he was put into a facility because he also drank like a fish

Placing Dad in a care home if he is a drinker will frustrate him and cause multiple problems at the care home. Keep Dad at home. Have one-on-one care from a number of home care professionals and you will control or eliminate his drinking problems.

Define what kind of facility you plan to put the elder in. AL's usually will not restrict drinking unless the resident has a Guardian who restricts alcohol per a legal statement. Nursing homes seem to follow a different guideline. Nursing homes have a med list for the resident. If there are meds given that have bad side-effects made worse by alcohol, or if there is documentation that the elder has hurt themselves terribly because of alcohol abuse, then a doc has more leverage (remember, it's all down to legal interpretation!) to say alcohol is off-limits entirely.

I have walked this path and it has taken a terrible toll on my life. Al-Anon helps. It helps you put things in perspective.

Regarding "care" documents. Consult attorney to find the right documents to help you be a caregiver. Avoid having your name on assets directly (eg: a bank account you co-share. If the "girlfriend" wants to help your dad, then let her "do" all the grunt work except managing assets. Put protectionary measures on a Trust for your dad. It's for him and only him and his lineage per-stirpes. Write specifically that spouses do not count.

Be an "ATF" (As Trustee For) -- ask your attorney if this designation works in your state. If you are just a "co-signer" person on a bank account, your assets are subject to whatever the "girlfriend" may try to get her hands on. Or, you also run the risk of being "co" responsible for debts.

Just sayin' per listening to many stories in this peer group of caregivers. Also, decades of personal experience with dealing with widowed parent w/ very active alcoholism. Doubt you can change them. Some doctors will work with you, some will stay very much on the sidelines. They know if they do the bare minimum they'll get paid, but they sure do not want to get into an ethical/common sense issue because of the legal quagmire.

YOU have about as much chance of convincing a set-in-their-ways alcoholic to stop drinking as you would winning a Powerball jackpot. Good luck.

What happens if you stop buying them booze? It's like the 600 lb. guy in bed who eats a dozen eggs and a pound of bacon for breakfast - someone is cooking for them!