Hello, friends. I posted last week that we recently moved my elderly mom into our home & are starting to suspect she has dementia, though she has NOT been diagnosed as such. Well, today she forgot I was working from home & made a few calls to family thinking she had the house to herself. What she had to say about me was disgusting and shocking. She has accused me of: Taking her wallet and using her credit cards for our own personal spending; Taking her checkbook and refusing to let her see any of her finances or access her own money; Planning a party for her at our house so we can use her money to purchase new patio furniture and landscaping (we've done both, but not with her money). She told my aunt (who entertained this entire conversation) that she thought we asked her to move in so she'd be with us, but all we've done since she got here is spend, spend, spend. Well, yes, that's true. We're repairing her house to put it up for sale. I know - friends tell me this is normal with dementia patients. But my mother hasn't been diagnosed with dementia yet! When we last spoke to our estate attorney about managing the sale of the house and the financial/legal stuff the one thing he said was despite me having durable POA, I need to be very careful how I manage everything until she has a dementia diagnosis on her medical record because until then, she's legally considered competent and if she ever starts making accusations, those could get a real legal hassle for me (not that I'd be legally in trouble, but that it could take a court to straighten it out...at my expense). My mother has always been very accusatory and restrictive with me towards anything of hers (she was never a mom that shared well with her kids). She started to default on her creditors and they started calling me because she wouldn't take their calls. Then she finally agreed to let me take over her finances and I was SO HAPPY when she signed the durable POA for me because I thought she had finally gotten over her distrust of me and I'd be able to help her. But now she's calling relatives when she thinks I'm not home and making these accusations? I spent a fortune to move her out here and get our house prepared for her. I can't afford any legal trouble. Even if it turns out to be nothing. Has anyone else been through this?
Thank you, CTTN5, and your points are both excellent, too.
You wrote: [ "There is nothing to prevent someone NPD to also develop dementia" ]
JeanneGibbs:
Yes, your words are true. An NPD parent can develop dementia, too. That is perhaps why some become far worse, as they age.
However, it's ageism to believe that all elderly automatically develop dementia.
Many 90 plus year old people remain sharp, due to excellent lifestyle choices and/or they are savvy enough to take certain drugs starting in their 40s, that waylay or even prevent dementia.
NPD people are childish and stubborn and self-absorbed.
They often exhibit the mentality and behavior of foot-stomping six year old. This can look like dementia, when in fact it is a personality disorder.
Please research NPD.
JeanneGibbs, you asked:
["What do you mean by this? "Other heirs can ask the POA for an accounting of expenditures, and anything that looks suspicious in any way will be questioned." They can ask, of course, but a POA is not accountable to other "heirs" unless the document itself specifies that." ]
If someone is seeking to overturn POA, by filing as POA with a court, an accounting can be asked for by the court of the current POA.
If anything suspicious is found the POA can be removed by the court.
Also, after someone dies, heirs can petition the courts to ask for a full accounting of assets that the POA had taken control of during the elders life.
The courts will look for suspicious transfers, based on timing and such.
Also money being moved to personal accounts, changes of POD or TOD beneficiaries, odd expenditures claimed to be for the elderly person, but really used for personal things pertaining to the POA, etc.
A forensic accountant can find a lot of things, if he/she takes a look.
If self dealing is determined, depending on the type and severity the POA can often be criminally charged by the courts. And/or sued in a civil court by other heirs.
If a POA is doing nothing wrong, and keeping proper records, they have nothing to worry about.
If the POA is not keeping receipts and proper records, this in and of itself will be seen as suspicious because part of the job of the POA is to always act in the best interest of the elder and to prove this, records will be requested.
You wrote : [ "And to your point about greedy heirs: It's not just greedy heirs to be concerned about, but it's also greedy associates of the mentally incompetent elderly person who exploit them for their money and get them (elderly person) to leave their money and their tangibles to these associates and to sway the elderly person to write their heirs out of the will who are also a concern." ]
Good points, rr4terps:
But also let's not forget that very often it is the person seeking to take charge of the elderly person that is the greedy one. This needs to be looked into.
What is the motivation of the caregiver? Sometimes it is love.
However far too often it is to isolate the elder person, so that they can play on the elder's paranoia or present themselves as a selfless caretaker saint in an attempt to turn the person against all other heirs.
Caregiving should be done only out of love for the person, not as a way to gain total control of their assets and to become sole heir.
I am a caregiver, and Durable POA, for an elderly friend who was like a mother to me. She asked me to take charge because her children fight and she is afraid one will attempt to take all.
I expect nothing. I get paid nothing. She is in an assisted living facility. I ensure her bills are paid and send a monthly accounting to all heirs. I use the internet and email, and it requires only minutes per day to click the button and send the information.
I am sad to see so many caretakers, with POA or DPOA, on this website claiming that they deserve to keep all the elder's assets simply because they agreed to caretaking.
In addition, in my work, I see this a lot, where the caretaker simply wants control of all assets for the purpose of self dealing or to exert undue influence on the elderly....all the while portraying themselves as selfless, even as they endlessly complain of the requirements of elder care.
Elder care is a tough gig. If you do not love the elder person you are caregiving, it is best NOT to take on the task.
A forensic accounting can easily determine what is going on with the elder's assets.
The elder's assets should ONLY be used for the elder's care. If not, and if someone challenges the POA an something fishy is found the POA can be sued or criminally charged or both.
Just because the caretaker is the caretaker also does not mean that he elderly person does not have other heirs she intends to leave money to, after she dies.
As you stated, so often on this site we see caregivers or family members whose goal appears to be to control the elderly person's assets. In my case, my father held the financial POA and had a financial advisor who helped him control my parents' assets (unfortunately, the financial advisor exploited my father, but I didn't know it until it was too late). I was happy that my father was handling his financial affairs because I wanted him to be able to hold on to as much of his independence as he could. He never shared with me how much his and my mom's assets were, despite his financial advisor advising him otherwise. But, I wasn't interested in knowing how much money my parents had-- only that they could afford to pay out of their own pockets for the care they needed and live in facilities that were comfortable, be able to have a decent quality of life even with their various needs, and that I wouldn't have to pay their rent and medical bills out of mine and my husband's own finances. From 1500 miles away, I kept abreast of and involved and informed about my mom's care and talked frequently with her care manager, care staff at facilities she was at and caregivers when she later had one-on-one caregiving, all of whom my father had hired or had made the decision on the facility my mom would live in. I made it known and worked with caregivers, care manager, and caregiving staff at my mom's, as well as my father's, facilities that I wanted both parents to be safe and well taken care of and their needs met At times, I was also in contact with their drs and nurse practitioners. And, I kept involved with that aspect as best I could from such a distance. In addition, there were a number of times my father was almost financially exploited by others (not his "friends") and I immediately let his financial advisor know of this so she could protect his finances. And in fact, my father's CPA was financially exploiting him by massively overcharging him for his (CPA's) services, something his financial advisor informed me of and told me she was dealing with-- but, it appears that she either wasn't successful in convincing my father to switch to a different CPA or she simply was involved with the CPA in financially exploiting my father, something I can't prove.
Also, because of my father's extreme narcissism, I never expected an inheritance, figuring he'd use his money to erect a monument to himself. And, from my perspective, that was his choice to do so if that's what he wanted to do with his money. I felt that it was my parents' choice whether or not to leave anything to me (although, I wanted the tangible items because of their sentimental value), and my husband and I didn't factor any financial inheritance from my parents into our own financial planning. Despite my parents having the financial assets to support themselves and their specific living and other needs, my father constantly pleaded poverty and tried to manipulate me into paying all of his and my mom's bills and living expenses, telling me once that he didn't care if my husband and I went bankrupt by paying all of my parents' bills and other expenses, just as long as he didn't have to pay their bills. Each time my father pleaded poverty and asked for my financial assistance , I reported this to his financial advisor (who was managing his and my mom's expenses and disbursing money for their rent from their trust account, something my husband's and my financial advisor told us wasn't legal to do) his requests for me to pay my parents' bills and support them financially, having been informed by his financial advisor that my parents had more than adequate financial resources/assets to pay/afford all of their bills. In fact, she had my father sign a permission to allow her to inform me if my parents were going to be depleting their financial funds within a year so we could plan how to proceed from there. Given that my father's financial advisor never contacted me that they were running out of money, I knew my father was manipulating me when he pleaded poverty. At those times that he did this and I informed his financial advisor of his requests, she would then talk with him to reassure him that he was fine financially. Yet, my father told the Tucson assistant atty general that I was meddling into his financial affairs, and she believed him and wouldn't listen to my side of the story-- instead, choosing to threaten and bully me and basically call me a liar. Because I don't live in AZ, I had to hire an attorney in Phoenix to help me deal with the profound ignorance of the assistant atty general in Tucson. My attorney strongly advised me that because of the Tucson legal authorities believing my father, not believing me, and the dangers that more problems would arise since he was continuing to lie about me to the staff at his facility and to his "friends" and associates, I should sever my relationship with him for the sake of my legal and mental well-being and safety-- which I did (not happily since I was his only survivor and he was at a point in his life where he needed the moral support of his family). As a result of my severing my relationship with my father, who not only had this long-standing mental illness dating back to his younger days but who was also showing some signs of dementia, he went to his estate attorney and wrote me out of his part of my parents' trust and tried to write me out of my by-then-deceased mother's half. But, because my mother was deceased when he changed their estate, he couldn't write me out of her half of their estate and I was left my mother's half, which should have included her half of the tangibles. But, because of the hanky-panky of several of my father's associates, including his financial advisor, CPA, and some "friends", he was exploited into leaving stuff to several of them, likely mainly tangibles half of which were my mom's and part of her estate left to me. These people, including my father's trustee, lied to me, and I had to once again get my Phoenix attorney involved just to try to get half of the tangible items that were my mom's. I can't prove that my father left any of his money to these associates. But there is a strong suspicion that they may have exploited him into doing so, based on things that were said to me at his funeral, that this is what happened. But, as you stated, the elderly person can leave their money and assets, or their share of it in the case of an estate of a husband and wife, to whomever they want. Unfortunately, my father's estate attorney apparently didn't question why a 91 year old man would suddenly want to change my parents' long-standing estate and write me out of the will. And neither did she apparently do much of a check of his mental state or any type of test for presence of dementia. While I don't agree with the estate attorney for her actions and feel that she should have done a better job of vetting his mental status and probably discouraging or even preventing him from changing the estate, there's no law that dictates that mental illness or even a degree of dementia prevents a person from changing their estate. And, the point still is that my father had the right to leave his portion of his estate (ie, his money and his portion of my parents' tangibles) to whomever he wanted and that there was nothing cast in stone that I, as the heir, was entitled to anything that was part of his estate/his part of my parents' trust. But, he didn't have the right to give away my mother's half of the tangibles which were part of her estate which I was left or to invade the principle of my mother's part of the trust, which my husband and I found that he and his financial advisor had done (ie, a breach of fiduciary responsibility, which my Phoenix attorney dealt with). There's a suspicion that his financial advisor may have attended the meeting that my father had with his estate attorney when he changed the estate and wrote me out and that she may have had a role in swaying him to change his estate. This, according to AZ law, would be considered exploitation of an elderly person. But, we could never prove it, so couldn't pursue it. In fact, my father left all of my parents' tangible property to the financial advisor. There was an earlier tangible property list, cosigned by my mother when she was mentally competent, naming me as the recipient of those tangibles. But, my father probably wrote up a new one, even though half of the tangibles were my mom's, and the financial advisor and my father's trustee both lied to me about knowing anything about any of this. Fortunately, I did receive several tangible items because I had to get my Phoenix attorney to deal with that.
And, while I wasn't a direct caregiver, I was very much involved from a distance to make sure they were both safe and taken care of. Unfortunately, it didn't end well because my father's severe mental illness and probable dementia-- both of which he was very, very adept at hiding from people outside of our family-- resulted in him using me as his scapegoat and betraying me with his lies. But, I can feel good that I always tried to protect my parents from being exploited (though I wasn't totally successful) and that I did the best I could to help make sure their needs were met, without a financial motive involved. I helped them out of love for both, even though it took over my life, and always wanted the best for them-- none of which my father recognized. So, sometimes even the best intentions of someone involved in caregiving, whether direct or indirect, that have no financial motives involved, ends badly.
You wrote that your attorney said: [ "I should sever my relationship with him for the sake of my legal and mental well-being and safety--" ]
rr4terps:
I am so sorry to hear of all your issues with your Narcissistic personality disordered father.
You likely never had a chance, if your father had NPD.
NPD parents are known for messing with their adult child's head by leaving them out of a will, or changing the will at the last minute to exclude them.
They seem to take a perverse pleasure in doing so. It is all part of their abusive nature.
Only a very disturbed parent would behave in the way your father behaved toward you.
NPD parents are very difficult for adult children to handle or interact with on any normal level. As you sadly discovered.
Personally, I feel that a parent should always divide assets equally among their children, or if they have only one child, that child is the heir that should inherit all.
That is why it is called a legacy.
In some countries a parent's assets always pass to their children which are the only legal heirs. They can not leave it to strangers, and are only allowed to leave a small portion to charities, in those countries.
Those countries are in essence saying that a parent is still responsible to their offspring, even after death.
The USA and some other civilized countries are lagging behind in this type of estate and will issue.
It is far too easy for strangers like the CPA and the advisor to step in and manipulate the narcissist, or a parent with dementias, particularly when the NPD parent pushes their adult child away.
A law that ensures assets pass only to legal heirs eliminates the opportunity for strangers to manipulate the elderly for monetary gain.
Often narcissists treat strangers far better than family. It can be disorienting for the adult child of the narcissist to see this.
You did the best you could. You tried to have a relationship with him, but he pushed you away, time and time again. Instead he stupidly put his trust in strangers, who were not trustworthy.
I am sending you a big hug. You deserve one.
As a result of how my father treated me and the results of his betrayal and my fear that my extreme anger toward him and the Tucson legal authorities (to put it mildly, I was very, very enraged at all of them) would get me into trouble, I decided to get some counseling. I've not only been in counseling (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) for 6 years, but also took a family dynamics class. I've learned alot about NPD and other mental illnesses and have gained a much better understanding of my family's dysfunction in these 6 years, so have better insights now than I did when I was going through this whole mess. And, what you mentioned about narcissists treating strangers better than family is so true. My mom often complained about this and how my father ignored his family and treated us so poorly, yet treated non-family members so much nicer than he did his own family. According to both one of my uncles (one of my father's brother-in-laws) who had known my father since they were teenagers and also his older sister, my father had been like this since childhood when he treated his parents and siblings and other family members like crap. And, he didn't care who he hurt or whose feet he stepped on, including his parents' and siblings' feet, as long as he got what he wanted. And, at the time of my mom's funeral, my father told a "friend", right in front of my husband and me, "you are my family and I love you", yet he had been unable to tell me for the 5 - 7 years previous to my mom's death that he loved me. His only response when I told him I loved him was a cold and detached "thank you." But, when I broke it off with him, he played the victim and stated he didn't understand why I wasn't talking to him and that he missed me and loved me. It was all about him and "oh, poor me, poor me". Such BS that anyone in Tucson who had contact with him fell for-- a bunch of idiots in that city. At his deathbed, though, he was still very lucid, and acknowledged that he knew why I had broken off the relationship with him and also acknowledged treating me rudely and knowing that I had had my parents' best interests in mind and that I wasn't Public Enemy #1. So, I found some comfort in his acknowledging that he knew what he had done. But, that still leaves me with bad feelings toward him, people in Tucson, and quite honestly, the elderly and legal authorities, in general. I don't trust any of them.
What I learned from both CBT and the family dynamics classes is that not only was my mother an enabler but my father also was mentally abusive toward my now-deceased sister, my mother, and me for our whole lives. And, he was also verbally abusive to my mom for many years. Unfortunately, I was too enmeshed in my family's dysfunction to fully understand it, although I knew for a long time that my father was very mentally ill. It was a taboo subject during my childhood, but I did bring it up and tried to discuss it with my mom when I was an adult. Her response was to become extremely nasty with me, saying some very hurtful things, and we ended up not talking with each other for almost 9 mos. My biggest regret is that I didn't understand my family's dysfunction (although I knew it existed) or stuff about NPD earlier in my adulthood because I would have broken it off with my parents at that point. My mother wasn't a narcissist, but she ended up in a counter-narcissism position (becoming extremely judgmental and nasty) as a coping mechanism for dealing and living with an NPD. According to my therapist, this isn't unusual. Back in the mid-1990s, my mother told me she couldn't stand my father but that she also wouldn't leave him both because of a sense of loyalty and also because she felt "what will he do without me?" The latter is a hostile dependence and something that my parents had toward each other. Neither of them could stand the other. But, my father so adeptly led people to believe that he missed and loved my mother and that she had been removed from his care and not allowed to live with him for no good reason. And, they all believed this "poor old man" who portrayed himself as a nice, little old man who was the victim-- when it was he who was the perpetrator and the victimizer of many people, not just me. My then-demented mom was removed from my father's care and his residence because of concerns that his mental and verbal abuse of her would escalate into physical abuse (an Adult Protection Services (APS) report had been filed against him by one of my mom's care managers). Unfortunately, the assistant atty general in Tucson, in her profound ignorance and incompetence, didn't do an adequate job of looking into why my mom wasn't living with my father. If she had, she would have found the APS report and may have believed me. But then again, in her own narcissism and arrogance, she still probably wouldn't have acted any differently than she did.
And, to your point about NPD people pushing family members away-- so true. That's exactly what my father did with me. But, when he needed to use or manipulate me, then he tried to draw me near to him. The only time he knew me was when he needed my help with something. Otherwise, he ignored me and treated me rudely. But, because my mother was still alive at the time, was a vulnerable adult, and I felt that I needed to be there for her sake, I put up with my father's bad behaviors and his pushing me away and then trying to draw me back to him. I've learned that this is a typical pattern with NPD people. There are many posts at this site about NPD parents.
I think that, in general, the problem comes down to the lack of inheritance laws in this country, the exploitation of the elderly by people with less than honest intentions, and the legal systems, themselves, that don't understand the issues and specific needs of the elderly and tend to assume them to be victims rather than the possibility that they could be liars and also be the perpetrators of things that victimize their family members, caregivers, and others who do have honest intentions. Unfortunately, I don't see any of this changing in this country anytime soon. From things that others have posted in various threads on this site, others have had some pretty bad experiences with their elderly relatives, with inheritance situations, and with run-ins with legal authorities. Seems like we have a pervasive problem here in the US.
You said: [" I wouldn't want him (your son) to be charged for murder on my account even though it would be justifiable homicide)." ]
rr4terps:
If you research patricide and matricide you will see that today psychiatrists who research such things, are claiming that they have never seen a case of matricide or patricide without parental abuse as the motivating factor.
Typically they find that one or both parents were abusive to the child or children. You might want to research Lizzie Borden, and her abusive family.
Also your parents "push pull" behavior is called "hoovering" in reference to someone with NPD. So your observance of this trait further indicates NPD.
In Spain parents must fulfill a parental obligation.
In Spain and most "European countries’ Laws of Inheritance - with the exception of the UK - state that children have an automatic right to a part of your estate on your death, even if they are not expressly mentioned in your Will. In Spain your children will automatically receive a share of your Spanish assets."
In the Uk you might want to research "reasonable provision" or "failure to provide reasonable provision" to a decedents children.
This rule makes it possible for a child in the UK to more easily dispute a will.
But, as you noted, it is difficult to overturn a will in the US, but not impossible. It has been done and is also now being done to turnover POD and TOD account beneficiaries.
In the end, however, what type of person would not want to treat ALL their children equally, no matter what the situation?
The answer is obvious: Only a very seriously mentally disturbed parent would do that.
I think anyone who has a NPD parent, should run as soon as they learn of their parents disorder.
I have heard of cases where adult children have been left out of the will simply because the parent is jealous of them or resents them or because the child is independent and successful.
People with NPD like lackeys only. They see only masters and servants in life. They are the masters and all others are deemed servants who must admire and defer to them all the time.
They likely have neurological damage to the emotional centers of their brain. They are brain damaged, and likely always have been.
In the end, as they lay dying, like your father, they all do most likely have a scary moment of clarity about themselves but by then it is too late to correct the harm they have inflicted.
Because of that regret, their last moments are likely spent in much anguish and fear and dread regarding their reception in an afterlife, if they believe in one.
Also, I think you hit the nail on the head about your mother resenting you even before you were born.
As I said with an NPD parent, you never have a chance.
I am so sorry you had to have an NPD parent and an enabler parent. Sending more hugs.
Re: your comment about a moment of clarity on one's deathbed: I believe this, too. The hospice nurses taking care of my father at his deathbed told me that alot of thinking and processing is going on in a dying person's mind as he/she approaches death. So, that supports what you said about that moment of clarity about themselves. And, I suspect this could have been happening with my father at his deathbed and why he was able to acknowledge that he knew why I had broken off the relationship and knew that his false statements to authorities had been the cause. At any other time, he would have denied all of this. And yes, I suspect that his last moments were very likely spent in anguish, fear, and dread. I also suspect that on his deathbed, there may have been a little regret that his lies had caused my severing the relationship with him-- however, probably more from a narcissistic point of view of how that severance had affected him and not about how it affected me. Also, one of the hospice nurses caring for him told me that in the week before my father died, he had told her and some of his other hospice nurses that God was punishing him. So, this plus his acknowledgment to me of his betrayal certainly point to a feeling of fear and dread for what lay beyond for him. Maybe he had some regrets about the consequences of his lies both in this instance with me and also, in general, with others throughout his life. Or maybe, the regrets are more about admitting wrong deeds done to many people throughout his life as a last ditch effort to be atoned for bad behaviors during life in the hopes of the beyond being a good place-- again, as you said, this sort of thought process depends on if the dying person believes in an afterlife or even a heaven or a hell.
And, the other thing that points to my father knowing why I had severed my relationship with him, although he wouldn't admit this to anybody else except for possibly to himself, was that 8 mos after he lied about me to Tucson legal authorities, when the Tuscon assistant AZ atty general showed up at his apartment 8 mos later with a camcorder to take/record statements from my father, to be used at a pretrial hearing for my mother's care manager, about alleged physical abuse of my mom and financial exploitation by this care manager and, to an extent, me (but, since I don't live in their jurisdiction, they had no legal authority over me unless I happened to go to/be in Tucson), with the camcorder recording him, my father actually told the truth that he had never been financially exploited by either my mother's care manager or me and that neither he nor my mom had been victims of elder abuse by this care manager or me. I was told that the video was played at the care manager's pretrial hearing and that it was very obvious to all in attendance, including the judge, that the assistant atty general was badgering my father and trying to coerce him into making these statements about the care manager and me. However, my father wouldn't cave in to the coercion and continued to tell the truth. According to what I was also told, the judge both saw through the assistant atty general's arrogance and motives (ie, self-promotion for the sake of furthering her career) and was livid that she (assistant atty general) had even wasted his time with this case. Of course because the trial was centered on the care manager, nothing was brought up in court to the judge about the assistant atty general's threats to me of criminal prosecution and her having effectively barred me from my mother's death bed, given that the pretrial wasn't about me. So, it wouldn't have been appropriate to have my situation brought into this hearing. Alot of it, too, was that there was very compelling evidence and some actual proof that the two caregivers who had initially reported the alleged abuse had lied to the authorities and that they very likely were the ones who had physically abused my mom. But apparently, this abuse by the two caregivers was deemed in court to have been accidental, which I question. What also bothers me about this is that, by virtue of his age (early 90s), whether or not he was mentally and cognitively capable, my father was a vulnerable adult, meaning that when the Tucson legal authorities went to his apartment both times, I believe that there should have been either a family member (ie, an adult child) or a trusted friend present to make sure that the elderly vulnerable adult wasn't either feeling threatened by these authorities, being coerced by them, or becoming confused by their incessant questioning. My parents, in their better days, often complained about the corruption in the Tucson Police Dept., something I also encountered and realized. And I also now realize that this corruption extends into the Tucson division of the Arizona Atty General's office, as well. So, it doesn't surprise me that Tucson authorities would act in this way with a vulnerable adult. And, I can certainly agree with my parents on the corruption part. And, there's also the fact of the profound stupidity in both the Tucson Police Dept and in the Tucson division of the AZ Atty General's office. It's possible they all violated alot of rules, but with that level of corruption in Tucson, it'll never be uncovered.
I also don't delude myself into thinking or believing that when he was being videotaped by the assistant atty general, my father told the truth out of any care or empathy for the care manager or me (as a sociopath, he had no conscience, so could show no care or empathy).I'm pretty certain that his reasons for telling the truth were solely to save his own butt because he knew that if he lied on tape where it was recorded proof of his statements, the defense attorney would jump all over it, my father would get hauled into court and there would be serious consequences to him from his lies-- or possibly that his severe mental illness and probable dementia would be revealed and he would risk being put in a locked facility and lose his independence, one of his greatest fears. 8 mos previous to the videotaping, the authorities had just written down his statements. So, this would have made it easy for my father to continue to lie or to later deny having made any of the statements he had made 8 mos before. On the contrary, the videotape would be hard to refute, which I'm pretty sure my father knew. Maybe, at the time of the videotaping, he had some regrets about his previous lies and them causing a rift in our relationship, but I doubt it because, for several years, he had made it obvious that he hated me and didn't give a crap about me. From my perspective, I'm thankful that he told the truth on the videotape, even if it wasn't because he cared about me, and also thankful that at his deathbed he could acknowledge the things he did.
Re: your point about my mother resenting me before I was born: I believe that both parents, not just my mom, resented me from the time of my conception until the end of their lives. There were some bad dynamics in their marriage that flowed over into the general family dynamic. And, I entered the family at a time when my parents were struggling with various things, plus their marriage starting to show some cracks that later very obviously widened into a chasm. So, I was just one more thing/hassle for them to have to deal with, one more mouth to feed, etc, etc. As is usual with NPD people, my father was very good at being insincere and manipulating people, including me, to believe his insincere words. This insincerity that I fell for was hidden behind kindnesses and very frequent expressions of love (as though he was trying to convince himself that he felt this way about me) he showed me from young childhood until his filters that successfully covered up his insincerity began to show cracks when he was in his mid-50s. By his late 70s and beyond, the filters were pretty much gone, making his hatred for me obvious and making it obvious that he had felt this way about me for a very, very long time, but had covered up these feelings toward me. In the family dynamics class I mentioned in a previous response to you as having taken, I learned that each person in a family unit takes on a specific role. My mother's role was as the chief enabler of our family and of my father's NPD. My role was that of the scapegoat. Even from childhood, I knew that both parents (and up until she left for college my sister, too) used me as their scapegoat, blaming me for their own failures in life. But, I was too enmeshed in my family's dysfunctional dynamic to understand how to deal with it. After taking this class, it gave me a better understanding of why and how my father was so easily able to use me as his scapegoat with the Tucson authorities. I believe that when NPD is involved, this sort of scapegoating is pretty common.
I also agree with your statement that when NPD is involved, whether it's a parent or someone else, those in that NPD person's life don't have a chance. And you're right, it's best to just walk away from that person because the toxicity that's created by any relationship with an NPD person will negatively impact your life and your mental wellness. I wish I had understood this stuff when I was 18 and starting off to college. But I also think that having gone through this stuff with my father further into adulthood forced me to seek help and get a much better understanding and perspective. It has also helped me to understand about boundary-setting and that the family dysfunction I grew up with can't be passed on to my kids and grandkids or even into my relationship with my husband and other family members and friends. I've been working really hard on trying to make sure I'm not passing on the dysfunction I grew up with. So, while this all was very painful, I also look at it as having been a very valuable lesson that hopefully will make my relationships and my family stronger and healthier. I certainly don't want my family saying, at my death, "Thank God!! She's FINALLY gone."-- as I felt when my father died.
The other thing I learned from this whole experience is to NEVER EVER trust the legal authorities to do their job or do right by you or family members. They're all corrupt, on a power trip, are bullies, abuse their authority, and are only out to make themselves look good, rather than to do their jobs or to protect individuals (in my case my elderly, demented mother) that they're tasked with protecting. In short, the police aren't your friends and people should only expect the worst from them. Don't even think that you're helping them or even someone from a state's Atty General's office because they'll turn on you viciously and accuse you of things that you didn't even have anything to do with. And another piece of advice here is to NEVER EVER talk to a police detective or other legal authority UNLESS you have an attorney present because they'll turn even your most innocent statements against you. They also won't listen to your side of the story. At least in Tucson, AZ, there is NO such thing as due process. You're assumed guilty before being given the chance to prove yourself innocent, rather than being presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. They also lie to you and don't respect the sanctity of parent-child relationships. They only care about promoting themselves and their careers and don't care who they hurt in the process. You could look at them as being narcissists. The assistant atty general certainly is one and very probably, an NPD, based on some things I've seen and read about her. As a result of my experience with Tucson legal authorities, I will never again trust any of legal authorities in any state in this country, will only talk with them if I have an attorney present to protect me, nor will I ever set foot again in Tucson unless it's to be at a trial to testify against both the Tucson Police elder abuse detective and the assistant atty general there. But, that's not going to happen.
Thanks again for all of your insights, information, and perspectives-- and for the hugs. I really appreciate them all and have found them valuable. Sending a big hug your way, too.
BTW, interesting comment about particide and matricide. It makes sense, though, especially when you're dealing with an NPD.
In my life, I called her mother before her the "Curve ball" as my grandmother could take the very same words they you really did say and send a curve ball over the plate and take you out! Quick example: Nana wanted info regarding a cousin of mine, who was pretty much a wild child and far surpassed the society rules of the day- Bi sexual, dated out of our race, drugs, booze, couldnt keep a job.... anyway, my grandmother wanted the gossip and she said these exact words: " You dont have anything good to tell me?" I said no nana, I dont have anything good! THE NEXT MORNING the phone rang and it was my cousin, chewed me up and spit me out for ratting her life out and how she would never ever trust me again. We were done, and stay out of my life. Nana ( moms mom) told her I was there yesterday and she didnt have anything good to say about you! That was then end of 2 bff cousins, to this day, some 40 years ago.
I now call my mother the " twister! " Just like your mom, She gets 1 or 2 points correct and the rest become a total assignation of how she was deliberately plotted against and the great lengths went to to deceive and hurt her.
With my mother, I find she does very stupid things, far more complicated than they appear and 99.5% of the time, she gets herself in such a mess. She is my problem child.
Example-She saw a stain on her garage ceiling. INSISTED she had a roof leak-BECAUSE OF THE SOB's TREE DEBRIS NEXT DOOR RUINING HER ROOF! She sent the neighbor a nasty letter, followed up with nasty note on the windshield, called the county to complain, and was told if it hangs on your roof, you have the right to trim it back. SHE REFUSED to pay that bill and the war was on. I do mean war. She like your mom, got on the phone and told everyone I left her with a leaking roof! Water pouring in! Mold, Mildew! Ceiling falling down on her car!
After months listening to her bi*** how the ceiling was going to "cave in and crush her car" I sent 3 different roofing companies over there. Everyone told her she need to leave the ceiling fan on in the garage and the a/c vent open- its florida! Humidity will build up. They all opened the vent and put ceiling fan back on- she went right behind them and shut it off, closed the vent with a broom- she said what am I paying to cool off a garage! TWIST!
She and I went to war, about me being too "cheap" to put a roof on her house- FYI she had a cement "florida" roof. At best it needed painting. Not good enough, she went and got a roofer on her own, who tore off a $30K tile roof and put on a $10K shingled roof.
I get a call, sitting at my desk and its the company wanting to be paid for the roof, the inspector just signed off and they were pulling the dumpster.
MY NAME was on the contract. TWIST! She booked it under my name and told them it would be lump sum payment because daughter was out of state when the job got going. Leading them to believe I lived there, but traveling! ( twist!)
I got the inspector on the phone, he said they did a great job and she was all set. I ended up putting it on a credit card at 29% interest. I wanted to get on a plane and finish this once and for all!
As much as 1/2 of me wanted to say tough! the other 1/2 was 90 degree days, rip off a tile roof, and re roof, plus a job well done, these men- who she suckered, needed to be paid for a well done job.
NOW, she just up and sold the house, no warning- for sale by owner- and had the house inspection. I was on the phone when the inspector went over the details- he asked her why she had the roof removed recently, and she said she had to for insurance purposed ( My eyes snapped open!!!! what happened to the caving in ceiling cuz of the neighbors tree??????) The inspector says not true- my roof is the original 57 years old, I have a rider on my house insurance. HER REPLY was "see how the insurance companies stick it to us seniors, they lied to me" I wanted to go thru the phone and just explode, 60 years of rage!!!! NONE of that was anywhere near the truth. TWIST! We went to war over this not needing to be done- falsified my name on a contract! to get what she wanted, when she wanted it and was not going to be denied.
The frosting on the cake was when the inspector said to her- "your house lost at least 20K in value for taking that roof off"...and she went right back at it being the insurance companies fault.
For my own sanity, I asked Was there ANY signed at all of a leak up there at one time, the inspector says "absolutely not"- I got off that conference call and promptly flung my phone across the room!
You have no idea the things that were going thru my mind! The most hateful, physically harming, vulgar statements were ripping thru my brain.
And yes, she called that night- I didnt have the stomach to talk to her, so she left this 3-4 minute message how the insurance company screw the seniors and they are in co-hoots with the roofers! They just say that to be able to raise your rates! Twissssst!
Give you another quickie- since im on a roll- I get this frantic call
( several years ago) MY REFRIGERATOR DIED! What am I going to do! I cant go without a fridge, foods going bad! water all over the floor....OMG OMG!
I told her she had 3 choices, Sears, Lowes and Home Depot. Go get a fridge and get it delivered. Call me from wherever and Ill give them my charge over the phone,. Im 1500 miles away- thats about all I could do.
She goes, get her fridge. Delivery was a week out, so my cousin went with his truck and picked it up and set in place.
My cousin calls me later, says she is all set and says why did you put such an expensive fridge in the garage? Huh? TWIST!
It wasnt the main house fridge, it was the back up fridge in the garage that died! She went from a apartment size cheapie 2nd fridge to a $2,100 fridge on my dime, without batting an eye. THEN! I find out, my cousin asked her why she got that fridge and the answer was- "she's paying". Then said, if the kitchen fridge ever died, she could swap them out someday- fridges were only going to get more expensive. Justify Justify Justify. TWIST! See what I mean!
Im 60 years old, this is only 2 stories, I could go on until the internet crashes. Now she has sold the house-no place to go-and a closing date in 6 weeks. This is a 4 bedroom home and she wants to part with nothing and move back here. How in Gods name am I going to pull this off.
She is 90 years old, the mouth of a lion and the venom of a snake. Morbidly obese, incontinent, and blood clot issues. Cant fly anymore due to health issues, cant do long hours in a car...I have no HCP or POA, she has no will. BUT she does have a canvas bag with nasty letters to be given out to the name on the envelope when she dies. Yep, you heard me right. THAT she could manage to do.
I paid for 2 lawyers over the years, First female lawyer ( years ago) in florida called me after and said " she isnt ready to go forward" and sent me a bill for $ 500.00 and the male atty about 5 yrs after that one, she insulted upon walking into his office-" I have one question for you", he said ok- she said "are you a jew? cuz those lawyers are the worst." I wanted to drop dead. He said I am of the jewish faith, do you want to continue? OF COURSE she did!!! I left the office and closed the door. She was in there for over an hour, nothing was done. He eventually said to me, " she just wants to talk, not to make any progress, Im sorry" and sent me a bill. Researched attys, got on a plane, lost a weeks vacation, got the bill and got noooooooo where! Twist! Both times she said she was ready to do this. All she wanted was someone to take me there, take me here, eat eat eat,,,,oh and while your here, wash out the trash barrels, sweep out the garage, take curtains down, wash curtains and windows and rehang....It turns out I was beckoned for domestic wants. Twist!
Its more than evident to me, she opens her mouth and uneducated crap falls out. She knows nothing about the world, other than her opinion of it, based upon the mood she is in.
She is an expensive, offensive, crude individual who oooze misery. Raised me to know
" your here cuz the rubber broke"( they were married 13 years before I was born) " you were a disappointment from day one" " I had a figure til I had you" " miserable delivery" " there were no vacations after you were born" " your an only child for a reason" " College? no- your only gonna get knocked up and waste it" ......these are just a few of my favorites.
I remember these words because they were carved into my brain. I knew, JUST KNEW I was the biggest mistake God ever created. I was less than others, different than other kids, far lacking in anything positive, no talent. Other kids had dancing school, and piano lessons, me, I had house work and home work, in that order. I was not allowed to leave the back yard if I was outside, I was going to be kidnapped. Neighborhood kids said I must be "retarded" if I couldnt leave the yard. I would take my transistor radio and sit at the pic nic table and play solitaire. Honor roll and graduated Valedictorian, she asked me if I cheated. As a teenage, it was drilled into my head I would get " knocked up" b/c of drinking or drugs. I wanted to go to medical school- her answers was " you aint that special- get a job". I remember a school dance, getting out of the car, her words : dont come home knocked up!
If a boy asked me to dance, I was petrified- Oh god, she was right! And that set the tone for dating- I didnt. Scared to become the pig she said I would be.
19 was the first time I tried to go to sleep forever, 2 bottles of Nytol didnt do the trick. Friends were at college, guys were noticing me at work, home life was miserable, house work galore and constant, I looked for the exit and when that didnt happen as I had planned, once again I failed, another failure to add to the many....she was right, couldnt even do that right. THEN I was labeled a drug addict! Well, I did take the "drugs" she must be right again. See how it falls into place, so nicely.
When I eventually hid enough money from my monitored pay checks, I got my first place. A room, with shared kitchen and bath. 3rd floor walk up. Paid weekly. I was there about 3 maybe 4 months- when I found a note on the door, my landlord wanted to talk to me. He gave me a stern warning about bringing "MEN" home and he wouldnt tolerate drugs and drinking trouble. Huh?
Seems my mother contacted the landlord and "warned" him about me. My mistake was bringing her to see my "room". She knew where I lived!
What was I thinking?!
Another few months went by and there was another note.....all he said was this isnt going to work out, be out by the end of the month.
To this day, I have no idea what got said- I had 2 jobs, 8-5 and 6-11PM
2pm-midnight on Saturdays at job # 2. I wanted to take night course for college and need the money. She wanted me back under her roof and thats what happened. She had lost control of me and wasnt having it. I moved back - like a failure, heard via cousins how I got kicked out of the apt. and immediately told I was paying the $ 75.00 per week to her, that I was paying a stranger.
I believed every twisted word and thought she put forward. To this day, I hear her distaste for me in her voice, unless she wants something, starts out nice, ends up vulgar venom.
I dread her moving here, I struggle to try to love her because I dont like her. I will do what I know to be right knowing full well of the consequences of being her daughter- getting within striking distance. I know full well, I am her target, as I have always been. She bestowed on me to be the reason she is miserable. And, must admit, when I am with her, until I loose it, I do revert to trying to make things civil and positive, to no avail.
Then, the woman I taught me to become rises to the surface and I unload 60 years of being her daughter right back at her. I dont bring up the old stuff, there is no point- just the anger of being subjected to her comes out. Somehow I end up thinking- THERE you have something to TWIST! lolol
Im learning I dont have to love her or like her. However I do have a responsibility to care for another human life, see that she is safe and provided for and thats as far as it goes now.
I am loosing the advantage of 1500 miles apart, and dread being local, should she even survive this latest snap decision. She is bezerk having to meet the expenses of selling a house and when she contacted movers, she went even crazier! THIS IS MY MONEY! everyone wants to take it away from me!
Her idiotic plan is to have it take to a storage facility and I CAN take her there and SHE can then tell me what she wants from there! Then I can sell what she doesnt want. Are these facilities free????? How do I put a 90 year old 340lb incontinent woman in and out of a storage facility going thru 300 boxes with a full time job? The utter stupidity yanks my nerves.
See what I mean, crap comes out of her mouth, no forethought, just her plan- now you make me happy.... and if you dont, the fun really starts.
She has no place to go, when she gets here! I think she is trying to force her way into my home, which I promise you all will not happen. I have 6 stairs out front and another 6 inside-(split entry) there is no way in hell she can do those at 340lbs and 90 years old. I have rod iron railings on open stair case- cant put in a stair chair lift .
It will be the end of my 37 year marriage; she absolutely HATES my husband- telling him every chance she got
" Listen Mister, blood is thicker than water and you can be replaced" VERBATIM! and hates our daughter, " shes a bi***!" yet my son walks on water. He stays as far away from her as possible, Go figure!
I work from home, another nightmare to consider 24/7 on demand. Plus she is nocturnal, and eats her way thru the night. Clients do come and go occasionally- Im not willing to risk that embarrassment as she prefers to be naked 90% of the time because of peeing issues. She stays naked and sits on piles of towels, refusing to wear depends because of cost and size not fitting her weight.
She is attention based, with others, as long as they are showing her attention, she is fine...leave the room, their back is a moving target. Me, Im just the punching bag.
So you are not alone. listen to the people here on this thread. This group here literally saved my sanity. The night I sat down and wrote for the first time, I poured out my soul, stunned that I did it-stuff came out of me i held back for years- no one else knew about unless they were in the room! in writing no less, into the black cyber space and this amazing bunch of people reached out with gut wrenching honest educated, personal experience advice. I was truly not alone, I wasnt Gods worst mistake-I wasnt crazy. I was hurting and for a very dam good reason. The advice I got from this group took me to a place where I could defend me, from falling backwards to that emotional beaten little girl every time she push another button of mine. I learned its ok to love and not like- its ok to stand by what I know to be honest, thought out and positive. And when I need reminding, I read thru the threads to keep myself in check. I dont know how this will all work on my end. Its up to me to remember the advise of many who care enough to help honestly.
Stand your ground girl, If I can drag my way thru this, you can too. Its her baggage to carry, not yours. Hand her back that 2 ton rock- if only in your mind, picture yourself actually handing it to her. Let her carry it and feel its full weight. Get her own place, get her out of your home. Keeping her there will be just like putting your hand in a garbage disposal! It will rip you up to the bone.
What you dont hear or see cant effect you and that will be one less day of anxiety for you. Deal only with what you absolutely have to and live your life. Take this advice if nothing else- you sought help from this group, because you know you needed it- we, the children of miserable came to help get another one of us thru it. If you keep her close, you are allowing her traits to creep into your life, ever so unnoticed and will eventually become your environment, your home your marriage and yes, your self esteem. Distance is ok, walking away is ok, and in our cases healthier than staying. living your life is your responsibility as well as how you live it. Life is hard enough! Its a simple choice that hard to learn. It comes with consequences, but not always for you. Stay strong.
Thank you for sending the hug.
You are right about your father possibly being sociopathic or psychopathic.
NPD exists on a spectrum and at the extreme end is psychopathy.
You wrote: ["however, probably more from a narcissistic point of view of how that severance had affected him and not about how it affected me. " ]
rr4terps:
Good point. Yes, even his moment of regret was probably rooted only in his own self interest.
you wrote: [ ".....he had told her and some of his other hospice nurses that God was punishing him. So, this plus his acknowledgment to me of his betrayal certainly point to a feeling of fear and dread for what lay beyond for him." ]
rr4terps:
Yes, it depends on the NPDs religious beliefs, but if they are religious, the end likely brings much dread. Sad but true.
You are also right about overturning a will or POD accounts. It can be done, if self-dealing or undue influence can be proved.
If medical records show things were changed when your father had dementia, it might be possible.
It is expensive, though. However the money should come out of the estate assets.
So, if there is a large enough estate.....$500,000 plus, you could recover your legal expenses from the estate, if you were to win.
The problem is there is no guarantee you will win.
I am really sorry this has bothered you so much.
your fathers will and actions throughout her life appear to show he had little regard for his child in life or whatever happened to you after his death, nor his grandchildren, either.
He did not deserve to have children. You were definitely abused by this man. Please do not doubt it.
At least now you know what NOT to do to your own children.
In the end that will be the only gift from your abusive father......the gift of clarity that enables you to know how to treat your own children better.
In the end you will be loved and honored by your children, perhaps surrounded by them in the end.
Your father lost out because he died alone, surrounded by strangers who care nothing for him, and only about his money.
Are you really going to be strong enough to refuse to allow her to live with you and your husband? Even if it's just "temporary"?
Your story is a horrible one, and you are coming to a critical juncture in the road. I fear that you will either end up letting her live with you, or paying for her to live somewhere else. YOU OWE HER NOTHING, after your lifetime of her abuse. NOTHING.
Please keep us updated!
Thank you.
Xtine00 and CTNN55 are so accurate in their description of the NPD
Xtine00 wrote: [ "Watch out because Narcissists pick a Scapegoat and try to disinherit them as a final blow to them. She could be trying to do this now. If you are the Scapegoat, most likely she has been doing things like this your whole life. " ]
Yes, Xtine000 is right......if you are the designated "scapegoat" or "runner child" you will likely be disinherited, out of spite.
Also, many times, you will hear of the child who did all the work and caretaking being disinherited, if they are the scapegoat or runner child.
With an NPD parent, nothing you do will please them, and they enjoy hurting the designated scapegoats or runners, while rewarding the so named "golden child".
So be careful of this. If you are going to care for her, ensure that you have POA over all her bank or stock accounts and that you are given an equal share of the inheritance in the will.
"Good enough" parents will want to leave an equal amount to all their children.
Only dysfunctional parents get pleasure out of playing favorites.
NPD parents do not respect or admire autonomy in their children, as do "good enough, normal functioning" parents.
NPDs will often seek to punish a well behaved or successful child, while rewarding the screw up children.
This is because they are often competitive with their children, and the screw-up children who are not very successful children do not make the NPD's fragile ego feel threatened.
Also, if their is a drug addict or alcoholic child in the family, and the family is afraid they will spend any inheritance in one day, the answer is to set up a trust that doles out the money over time.
An addicted child has an illness and the "good enough' parent will care enough to provide for them in their will, rather than disinheriting them.
Re: the trust and will: While there was likely alot of undue influence, which was something my attorney strongly suspected, if it can't be proven, then the decision of the elderly person to change the will won't be overturned. And, that was the case with my father's part of the trust. He's been gone 4 years and, after demanding and getting several tangible items, I told my attorney I was willing to settle it at that. So, the estate processing has been closed. I just mainly wanted the tangibles because I looked at any money that my father had touched and that was in his part of the estate as dirty money that I didn't want to be associated with. Since the tangibles were partly my mom's, I was happy with that. For my father, given that he was from a poor family, once he suddenly had some money that my mother's brother left my parents, he not only bragged about it to people (I told him to stop broadcasting this because people would take advantage of him, but he ignored me) but also used it as a means to try to control me. I refused to fall into his trap on this. When I severed my relationship with him, I was pretty sure he'd pull this money stuff with the trust because money was so important to him over family loyalty. But, given his betrayal, there was no way I was going to lower myself to his level and continue a relationship of betrayal and one where he hated me just for the sake of a monetary inheritance. If I had done that, I don't think I could ever again respect or live with myself myself. From my perspective, in taking the high road, not falling into his money worship and using it as a means to control me, and drawing the boundary when he betrayed me, I can hold my head up and feel good that I kept my integrity and my character and can live with myself. My father didn't understand that there's way more to life than money, that money can't buy you friends and love, and that family and friends are far more important and valuable assets in your life than money. So, as you correctly stated, my father was the loser because he died without the love of his family and had only strangers to take care of him. And those of his so-called "friends" were only there with him over the years and up until his death because they were either manipulated by him or were hoping that they'd get some of his money (this was quite obvious to me at both his deathbed and his funeral). In fact, at his deathbed, his manipulation was so strong that I could almost reach out and touch it. In order to not be drawn back into this manipulation (and make all of my CBT work go for naught), I had to visualize putting a finger in each ear while saying "La, La, La, I can't hear you". I also had to visualize that I was wearing a metal coat of armor so that he and his cronies couldn't get their hooks into my body and draw me back into the manipulation and their disgusting behaviors. These two visualizations worked. But, I was nauseated by the behavior of those at his deathbed and at his funeral-- his so-called friends who pretended they cared but whose words belied that care and made it quite obvious that they just wanted his money and many of his tangible items.
And, Heather, you're so right about the gift of clarity having coming out of my father's abuse. I've grown from the experience, and with that, I think that my relationships with my family and friends are stronger and healthier.
Again, thank you so much for your insights.
Don't feel guilty about severing an extremely toxic relationship that has had a long-term negative impact on your mental wellness. You owe your mother NOTHING. She has shown you time-and-time again that she doesn't care about you, has no loyalty to you, and she certainly doesn't love you. It's time to declare your independence from her before her lies and manipulation impact you even worse than they already have. She has consistently betrayed you by lying to your cousin, lying to your landlord, making you foot the bills for things that are her responsibility, etc. My father tried to manipulate me into paying all his and my demented mom's expenses. He always pleaded poverty, which was total BS. It sounds like your mom is doing the same with you. But, I refused to fall for any of it and reported it to his financial advisor. Remember also that people with NPD have a sense of entitlement, thinking everyone owes them everything-- this is seen in your mom expecting you to pay her bills and she has controlled you into doing this. This needs to stop immediately or she'll bankrupt you financially. She's already bankrupted you emotionally.
When a relationship is this toxic, it's time to sever it IMMEDIATELY before you end up in trouble with legal authorities and also to protect your mental wellness and sanity. You've already tried to take your life once because of your mom's extreme toxicity and evilness. Why do you keep going back for more? Why do you think you owe her anything after the way she has treated you almost your entire life? By letting her manipulate you into footing her bills and lying about you, you're enabling her to continue to mentally and verbally abuse you. It looks like you're very enmeshed in her mental illness. The only way to get yourself out of it is to sever the relationship and gain back your independence from her mental pathology. With an NPD person, there usually is very little chance of reattaching in a healthy way with them-- they'll only start again with the manipulation, etc, and you'll be back to Square One. And don't feel bad that she's old or will suffer if you're not there to help her. It's OK to sever a relationship with an extremely toxic and mentally abusive parent. Believe me, once you sever the relationship with your mom, even if she bad mouths you, she'll find other suckers to manipulate to do all the things you've been helping her with. You need to draw the sand in the line and set a very firm boundary over which she isn't allowed to cross. It sounds like you haven't set a boundary with her, allowing her to walk all over you. Time to stop this. NPD people suck the life blood out of you and take everything from you. Don't allow yourself to be put in this position. And, stop putting yourself on a guilt trip by thinking that something bad will happen to her if you're not there to catch her. It's about time she falls and holds responsibility for her own bills and her life choices. She's just scapegoating you. If something bad happens to her as a result of your not helping her out, too bad. She's treated you like crap and made it difficult for you to enjoy life. Again, you owe her NOTHING, especially because of the disrespectful way she treats you. You need to stand up and start respecting yourself, since an NPD person will never do this. Don't let her continue to control you and ruin your life. No matter what you do, she'll keep sucking more and more out of you, without a care about your welfare and happiness. So, STOP trying to please her and do her bidding. My NPD father sucked all emotions from me. By the time he betrayed me to Tucson, AZ, legal authorities and I had to spend quite a bit of money on attorneys' fees because of his lies, I could finally admit to myself that I hate his guts. And, I don't feel guilty about admitting my deep and passionate hatred of the SOB. After I severed my relationship with him after I was threatened with criminal prosecution because of his lies, he found other suckers to do his evil bidding, even though he kept saying bad things about me. NPD people are very adept at manipulating and enmeshing/entrapping people to do their evil bidding. Then what happens is that those in their lives not only enable them but also take on their pathlogical thinking patterns. Been there done that. You need to pull your mother's claws out of your sweater, set the firm boundaries, and totally remove yourself from her life if you're going to improve your mental wellness.
Here are a few suggestions I have for severing the relationship (and, it's not as hard as it sounds): Block her from both your cellphone and your landline (if you're able to do the latter)-- if not, screen all phone calls and if the voice message is from her (she could try calling you from a phone that isn't a familiar number to you), simply erase it. DON't answer it. Her message will be that she's having a medical emergency or some other crisis-- all BS just to get your pity and hook you back in. If you need to, put your fingers in your ears and say out loud "La, la, la, I can't hear you." Second, if you are her medical and/or financial power of attorney or hold guardianship of her, go to her estate attorney and remove yourself from those documents and give up that position. She'll have to sucker someone else into the POAs. And, if it's a guardianship thing, she'll become a ward of the state and they may not be as kind to her as you've been. Third, make sure that she doesn't know or possess your credit card numbers. If she does, get new credit cards. And, if she knows your bank and/or checking account numbers, contact your bank to alert them that you are the only one authorized to withdraw money and that she'll try to convince them that she has authority to do so. Make sure that the bank does a check, either picture ID and/or requires a social security number when there's a request of a withdrawal from an account. Fourth, whenever you receive a call from a contractor or sales person about a job around her house or new appliances, tell them that she's totally financially responsible for those things, that you're not involved or responsible for her bills even though she put your name on the contract (tell them that she's mentally confused, if need be) and that they'll have to take it up with her about the job and paying for it because you don't pay her bills. She's an adult and is responsible for paying her own way-- this is a boundary that you need to draw right now (you can tell her, but she'll likely manipulate you and try to put you on a guilt trip. So, ignore all requests from her for money or financial help from you). Fifth, if you receive a bill in the mail from people who have done work around her house or for purchases she's made, DON'T open the bill, but rather write on the envelope, "return to sender, addressee unknown" and put it in a mailbox. And, if bills come in your email, simply block the sender. If they call you on the phone, either ignore the calls and block them or tell them that she's responsible for her own bills, not you, so they'll have to work with her. And, if this means she gets sent to collection, so be it-- natural consequences for her. And, you can give these people a heads up that she'll lie and try to make you responsible, but that you've already discussed this situation with an attorney. Sixth, and probably most important, retain an elder attorney in Florida who can help you in case your mom lies about you to authorities/friends/strangers/family/friends, etc or has put you on her bills as the responsible party. You have no obligation to pay your mom's bills, but she has so controlled you that you feel this responsibility and then have caved in and just paid. This is the usual MO of an NPD person. But, it doesn't mean that you have to be controlled in this way. Not only does an NPD person suck the life out of you emotionally, but they can suck you financially. Don't let his happen. Seventh, contact your mom's primary care dr and let him/her know what she's been doing and that her behaviors show a concern for a mental illness and dementia and tell the dr what she's been doing that leads you to believe this (gaslighting, manipulation, long-term mental abuse that is worsening as she gets older, etc, etc). But, right from the start of any conversation with her dr, make sure you demand that the conversation be kept strictly confidential between you and the dr and NOT to be shared with your mom. If the dr violates this and reports to your mom, report him/her to the facility he/she works at and to the local chapter of the American Medical Association. I had a situation with my father where his dr was not only nasty and unprofessional with me, but shared our conversation with my father. Thinking that drs are usually professional about this and that I, therefore, didn't need to tell this dr that our conversation was in confidence not to be shared with my father, i didn't demand confidentiality. I should have reported this dr.
Eighth, if you're not already seeking mental wellness counseling, I strongly recommend it. After my father's betrayal of me and him basically laughing at my being threatened with criminal prosecution, which was the straw that broke the camel's back, not only did I sever the relationship with him, but I also started seeing a therapist (6 yrs ago) for Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT). CBT has given me lots of insights and understanding of my dysfunctional family dynamics and about NPD. I've learned about detachment from the NPD person and setting boundaries. When you have an NPD person in your life, it takes many years to heal from the mental damage they inflict on you. But, you can heal with the help of therapy. I've come a long way in healing from my my dysfunctional family and my father's long-term mental abuse, but am still on the healing journey. Ninth, you may want to give your mom's neighbor's and your other family members a heads up about her long-term mental abuse and lies about you just in case she tries to enmesh these people, as well and they believe her and report you to the police or other authorities. I wouldn't be surprised if she calls legal authorities on you or her lies to her friends, neighbors, etc, about you, once she realizes you've severed the relationship with her cause these friends and neighbors, etc, to report you. However, remember that since you don't live in Florida, you can't be extradited, and as long as you stay out of the Florida jurisdiction that your mom lives in, the legal authorities have nothing on you. You haven't committed any crime by severing a relationship with her, and certainly, this isn't a federal crime that crosses state boundaries that they can extradite you for. So, if legal authorities start calling you, consider it harassment and report it to your Florida elder attorney to deal with.
Your biggest task right now is to immediately and completely sever ALL ties with your mom-- emotional, communication, and financial, and be strong and stick to your guns. She has held you prisoner long enough to her mental illness-- time for you to detach from it and pull her claws off and out of you, and to take back your life. You can do it. And, for your own survival and mental wellness, you need to. If you start getting calls that she's ailing, etc, just ignore the calls. When you get a call from the hospital that she's on her deathbed and you decide you want to talk to her, make sure that there's a witness listening in on the conversation as a protection for yourself, especially if there's a chance she's not really on her deathbed or could miraculously recover. I had to do this with my father when I got a call that he was on his deathbed. And, the ONLY reason I went to be at his deathbed was so that one day I wouldn't have regrets that I hadn't gone and that this would later affect me mentally. If not for this, I wouldn't have even gone to his deathbed.
Struggling1, in my comments, I know that I was direct and blunt, not to hurt your feelings or be mean, but rather to help you understand that it is perfectly ok to walk away from a toxic relationship with a parent when it so hurts your mental wellness as it has yours for so many years. I've gone through this with my father, so understand what you're going through. And, I also felt the guilt and like I owed my father something because he and my mom had brought me into this world and had provided for me. But in reality, like me, you have gone above and beyond anything you owed your mom and you have tried to love her and be a good daughter to her. And, it sounds like you have been the best daughter to her that you can be. But, like my father, your mom isn't allowing you to do this. So, sever the relationship-- it's long overdue.
Best of luck to you. I hope you can find the strength to end your relationship with your mentally ill mother. Sending hugs your way.
You wrote: [ "And, I also felt the guilt and like I owed my father something because he and my mom had brought me into this world and had provided for me.
But in reality, like me, you have gone above and beyond anything you owed your mom and you have tried to love her and be a good daughter to her.
And, it sounds like you have been the best daughter to her that you can be. But, like my father, your mom isn't allowing you to do this. So, sever the relationship-- it's long overdue." ]
rr4terps:
Excellent post.
People with NPD parents are always trying to make sense of nonsense.
You can not use logic or reason on an NPD parent. They do not understand normal relationships. They never apologize for their own negative behaviors, they simply expect the child to eat the dirt sandwich they offer, and with a smile.
Nothing a child does will ever be good enough.
These types of parents are cunning and show a perfect face to strangers while meeting out covert abuse to their children. Meanwhile the NPD garners sympathy from unwitting strangers, even though the NPD parent has caused their own problem and alienated their own child.
NPD parents are always estranged from their children, but they accept no responsibility for it. They only lay blame at their childrens' feet.
NPD parents are malicious and take pleasure in emotionally harming their own children emotionally and sometimes physically.
When a child voices objection to the abuse, they abuse them further because they do not want others to see the truth and they are enraged that their own child has the audacity to see the truth and complain.
If they have other slavishly obedient children who are dimwitted enough to play the game, or who play the game to manipulate money and gifts form the parents, they will employ those children as flying monkeys to harm and further abuse the independent, self sufficient child.
For you and others who had to go no contact with a malignant narcissist. Please, please, stop beating yourselves up.
You can not love someone who refuses to let you in and refuses to accept your love.
Typically these people resent their own children simply because their children want to be independent and have their own lives.
A good parent would be happy that they raised an independent child.
As mentioned malignant NPD parents only see masters and slave. They see themselves as masters, and every one else is supposed to be their loyal servant or slave.
If a child of an NPD is not slavishly obedient the parent will withhold love and affection.
In order to be treated with a modicum of respect the child, the child is expected to focus solely on the NPD, and to devote their lives to the NPD
Cutting contact is a survival mechanism.
Please, do not feel guilty.
You also make very good points about life with an NPD person. You have very good perspectives on the situation. You said, "In order to be treated with a modicum of respect...." : You hit the nail on the head. Neither of my parents ever really respected me as an adult, but my father more so in his last years. And yes, if you don't bow down and kiss the NPD's toes, you're on their sh*t list forever. As soon as I called my father out for his mental and verbal abuse of my demented mother, he stopped telling me he loved me. And, once he made the decision I was his mortal enemy and an evil person, nothing but nothing was going to change his mind. Even knowing this, the only reason I didn't cut it off with him way sooner was because of my concern for my mother's welfare. I felt that if I didn't have some involvement, he would do things that would have been very detrimental to both her mental and physical health.
I felt quite guilty for awhile, but with the help of CBT, I've come to realize that I, indeed, was the best daughter I could be and did the best I could do at the distance I lived from my parents and with the info I had and was given. If you don't live close by and aren't there to see what's going on with your own eyes, people tell you anything they want to or what they think you want to hear, and that's very often not the truth. I no longer feel guilt, just remorse that I didn't understand NPD way sooner and sever or reset the relationship with my parents when I was in my 20s. Lesson learned, and one that I've informed my adult kids about and that we've discussed so they know what to do as my husband and I age.
Thanks so much for your insights and great comments on this situation. I hope you never encounter this type of thing with your elderly friend that you're watching over.
Anyway, we severed all ties with his family until 10 years ago and for the past 10 years it was all normal & everyone got along. Well, the BIL & his family had distanced themselves which was fine by me. I let my guard down, figuring that what was in the past stayed in the past & we had all moved beyond it.
Nope. It was all a charade. FIL passed away 5 months ago and within 2 months the ugliness reared its head. We are now back to where we were 30 years ago -- in hell. I call it "the rabbit hole". MIL moved in with her 2 (divorced) daughters that live together. All 3 of them feed off each other's maliciousness & apparently are where they want to be. They have nightly pity parties and trash talking sessions -- usually about my husband & I and the distant BIL & his wife. Yes, jealously plays a huge part in this.
This forum -- this thread -- has given us, hubby & I, the strength to stand our ground. I no longer feel uneasy that I stopped helping. And my husband no longer feels that he is letting his father down by not helping either. Actually, MIL & 2 SILs have said they don't need our help, yet the calls still come when something needs to be done. Calls that are ignored.
And this is the other side of the "siblings don't help" story. Here is the reason.
1. “Nothing a child does will ever be good enough.”
I believe that many NPD people are perfectionists and hold others to the same high standards of perfection that they hold themselves to. The difference is that the NPD person sees themselves as perfect, never doing any wrong. So, since nobody but themselves is perfect, anything anyone else does is never good enough because only the NPD person is perfect. My father was a perfectionist and was never able to praise my sister and me for jobs well-done, both when we were kids and also when we were adults. His praise was in the form of “it’s ok”, never “job well-done”, “good work” , “good effort” or “I’m proud of you”. So neither of us ever felt like we could be good enough for him. Fortunately, my mother was better at praising. My father indicated that he didn't like to praise us because he didn’t want us to get a swelled head. How ridiculous is that, especially when/if the praise isn't lavish and for every little thing a child does? But, I think it’s because in his eyes my sister and I (and even my mother) could never be as perfect as he was. Then, when my mother became demented and I was called on by various professionals and facility staff members to get involved with my mother’s care for her welfare because of my father pathological behaviors, his inability to adequately address her many needs, and also because of his mental and verbal abuse toward her, anything I did to help out with was met by my father with sabotage of my mother’s elder abuse managers’ and my efforts, accusations, and bad-mouthing. And, he was always very quick to point the finger of blame when things didn’t go well. Yet, he told one of my uncles (my father's brother-in-law) that he didn't have time to call his sister (my uncle's wife), who had cancer, because he was so busy taking care of my mother. What BS! I set my uncle straight on that and his response was, "I should have known your father was lying since he has been a liar for as long as I've known him" (they had known each other since they were teenagers-- so, that was a very long time).
One other thing along these same lines of “not good enough” is that because an NPD deems him-/her- self as perfect and never doing anything wrong, they don’t like to take on responsibilities that they should own. So, they hand off their responsibilities to others, garnering sympathy about why they’re unable to take on their responsibility/responsibilities. Then, when things turn out well, they take all of the credit for what should have been their responsibilities but that they shirked and had others do for them, never giving credit to the person or people who actually took on the responsibility. But, when things don’t turn out well, the NPD is real quick to point the finger of blame at these same people and use them as his/her scapegoat. My father had been doing this for most of his life, and he did it to me, garnering sympathy and pity as the victim of all the things that had gone wrong. My mother had even complained about this to me a year before she had her stroke that led to her dementia. In that conversation, my mother told me that my father had everybody take on his responsibilities, then would take credit when things went well or pointed the finger of blame when things went wrong. She said that he “always came out smelling like a rose”— either because he blamed others for things gone wrong that were his responsibility to do or that he took all the credit when things went well. While I heard and understood the warning my mom was giving me, I felt like I was between a rock and a hard spot after she became demented. So, I felt that, because of my father’s severe mental illness, taking the risk of my father pointing the finger of blame at me for things that might not go well, vs not being involved at all with my mom’s care and needs, was the lesser of the two evils. My problem is that I stayed involved too long and should have walked away when I had the chance. But realistically, I would have felt terrible and guilty for abandoning my mom. But, maybe that would have been the better choice— I’ll never know and can’t dote on it because what’s done is done. And, I feel that my involvement helped my mom's many needs to be adequately met.
2. “These types of parents are cunning and show a perfect face to strangers while meeting out covert abuse to their children. Meanwhile the NPD garners sympathy from unwitting strangers, even though the NPD parent has caused their own problem and alienated their own child.”
You totally hit the nail on the head with this one, Heather10. As long as strangers or non-family members were present, my father was the doting husband/father/father-in-law/grandfather to my family, lavishing attention and fake love on us. But, as soon as it was just family present, he totally ignored all of us. Strangers/non-family members then believed that my father was a wonderful person and kind to his family. Gag, gag, gag! How naive they all were. In CBT, I learned that this type of excessive ignoring is a form of mental abuse. My father had been doing this excessive ignoring to my mother, sister, and me our whole lives. And, in that year before my mother had her stroke and resulting dementia, in mentioning that my father never took on his responsibilities and was quick to point the finger of blame when things went wrong or take all the credit when things went well, she also told me, “Everyone thinks your father is so wonderful. But if they only knew, if they only knew how he treats his own family and ignores us all.” My mother described it perfectly and I acknowledged to her that she was absolutely right.
3. “NPD parents are always estranged from their children, but they accept no responsibility for it. They only lay blame at their childrens' feet.”
This is exactly what my father did. He accepted no responsibility for his betraying me, and he deluded himself into believing his own lies that he had done nothing wrong and that it was me who had been the bad actor in this whole thing. And then, not only did he lay the blame for this estrangement at my feet and broadcast that blame to others, but he also bad-mouthed me to all of his so-called friends and associates in Tucson (basically a character assassination-- slandering me), including the Tucson legal authorities, and led them to believe that I was a stupid and evil idiot who not only was abusing him but who was also after his money. He was able to get away with this and get people to believe him because he was extremely adept at manipulation, having raised it to an art form, as so many NPD people, in general, are adept at. His portrayal of me as a stupid person and getting his “friends” and associates to believe these things about me is what made it easy for them to try to pull the wool over my eyes in terms of my parents’ estate and engage in hanky-panky with it. They must have been pretty surprised to find out that I’m not as stupid as my father portrayed me to be when my husband uncovered concrete evidence of invasion of the principal of the trust by both my father and his financial advisor, in addition to some other hanky-panky by his CPA and others. My attorney didn’t mince her words with my father’s trustee’s attorney and he and the rest of his "friends" all ran away in fright.
Also to the point of not taking responsibility for an estrangement: Initially, after I severed the relationship with my father, he played the age and pity card, stating that he didn’t understand why I was no longer talking to him. He then went on to garner pity by stating that he loved me and missed me. He didn't fool me one bit, but he fooled the person who communicated this to me. And, he also told this person that it was a daughter’s duty to call her father. Yeah right-- where is that law written? I just about gagged when this associate communicated all of his BS pity-garnering statement to me. This associate, obviously manipulated and enmeshed with my father, tried to get my sympathy by telling me that my father was old and life is too short. I told her that betraying one’s own flesh and blood by lying just to garner attention and pity, causing the betrayer's own flesh and blood to be threatened with criminal prosecution on the basis of those lies and then laughing it off when told of the criminal prosecution was the crossing of a boundary that far outweighed life being too short. I never again heard from her— thank goodness! At one point soon after my father realized that I had severed the relationship with him, he sent me a letter telling me that he loved me and to never doubt his love-- all insincere BS to try to entrap me. I didn't buy it and stayed away.
4. “NPD parents are malicious and take pleasure in emotionally harming their own children emotionally and sometimes physically.”
So true. My father’s laughing off of my being threatened with criminal prosecution because of all the false statements he had made to Tucson legal authorities is a glaring example of the pleasure an NPD parent takes in harming their own children or even their spouses. There was almost a glee in my father's voice when I told him that because of his statements to legal authorities I could end up in jail or prison. This, to me, is sadistic. Interestingly, when I told him the statements he had made that the Tucson assistant atty general was threatening me with criminal prosecution over, my father acknowledged having told them these things (I was shocked that he didn't lie to me). I asked him if he believed his statements to be true, and he pussy-footed around, hemmed and hawed and wouldn't give me a straight answer, which led me to tell him that his false statements had caused a huge legal problem for me. He, as expected, didn't express any remorse and he didn't challenge my use of "your false statements". His acknowledgment of having willfully told legal authorities these lies (and basically admitting to me that they were lies) and then almost gleefully laughing at my having been threatened with criminal prosecution were, needless to say, infuriating and totally enraged me. This level of toxicity makes it impossible to have a healthy relationship with an NPD. And, anyone who has an NPD parent who engages in sadistic pleasures that emotionally or physically harm them, should sever the relationship immediately. I believe that Struggling1's mom fits into this category and that her mother is so toxic that she should sever her relationship with her mom. I sure hope she's able to do this in the near-term. Her story is heart-breaking.
Re: your comment about physical abuse: Fortunately, my father never physically abused either my sister or me, and to the best of my knowledge he never physically abused my mom-- it was all just mental and emotional abuse, and verbal abuse of my mom later on when she became demented.
This taking pleasure in emotionally harming their own family members is a clear example of the lack of a conscience in NPD people. They are clearly either sociopaths or psychopaths. I think that for a good part of his life my father was a sociopath. But, in the last 20 years of his life he started moving toward psychopathy, especially in his final 8 years. In doing a Google search of characteristics of a psychopath, I found a list at a Psychology Association website. They list 7 characteristics of a pyschopath. My father fit into 6 of the 7. One thing I learned is that sociopaths are just as capable of committing murder as psychopaths, and that committing murder doesn’t automatically make one a psychopath. I think the underlying common theme for both sociopathy and psychopathy is a lack of conscience, with it maybe being more entrenched and severe in a psychopath.
Excellent and spot-on points you made in this post, Heather10. Thanks again for your insights on this.