The POA took a salary. When will it stop?

Realtime, well said, and insightful.

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Shoot - I was wondering about something - just in case alarmedtoo is still around - you said in your first post "I said from day one...Lets me sure to divide everything 4 ways..." What we're you hoping to divide 6 years ago when your mother first had the stroke? Money at the time of death seems to often bring out the worst in people. In this case it seems to save started much earlier - so sad. I agree with realtime that the poor mother almost seems to be an after thought. I guess I would feel differently is any concer

Posted by accident - to continue - if any concern for the mothers well being had been expressed. Again, very sad.

RainMom, I completely agree. I couldn't help thinking of the Cinderella story, with the difference being that there's no stepmother in the picture.

Still, I'd hate to be the mother and learn that 3 of my daughters are more concerned with the money the other daughter is getting to be caregiver on the spot, than they are with me.

There are also too many inconsistencies in this post to be sympathetic to the 3 daughters.

Has anyone else noticed also that Alarmed states in her profile that she's caring for her mother in a nursing home, when she's actually some distance away?

Realtime is right, the care and well being of your mother should be the primary concern, not the division of assets. Alarmedtoo, your statement to the effect that right after your mother's stroke you said that everything should be divided equally looks to an outsider that you were hoping that there would very soon be an estate to divide up. Since mom has been in a nursing home for six years, that estate is dwindling and you are worried that you won't get much. The fact that the POA sister is better off financially than the other three has absolutely nothing to do with it. You said at one point that mom had given funds based on need to you and your sisters in the past. Maybe it appears to POA sis that the other three of you took advantage of mom's generosity before and now she is doing just what you said you wanted - making things more equal. There are lots of family dynamics at work here that we outsiders cannot know, especially since we have not heard anything from POA sis.

In thinking about this post, it got me to thinking about my own role as DPOA. My mothers DPOA is very long and very detailed. It gives me complete freedom and authority over both financial and medical decisions. In the beginning - five years ago, I was meticulous at documenting everything and communicating every detail to my two older brothers. At the time both brothers were not much help with my parents. Oldest brother visited a couple times a year and older brother - a couple of times a month. Both live about 30 minutes away. After a while I realized I was just creating more work for myself - although I still keep a pretty good paper trail I stopped calling them over every dime spent - which was fine with them. Present day oldest brother still visits a couple times a year but has told me he trusts me completely regarding money spent. Older brother is now more involved since he retired last summer. I try to keep him more informed now and include him is most decisions regarding moms care - I do it out of courtesy in respect to his new level of involvement. For ease in bill paying I keep a large savings account to feed moms "fun money" checking account and the bill paying checking account that I use. Back in August when mom took her big fall I rightly guessed that it would be a game changer. I decided to move $50,000. from savings to the bill paying account in anticipation of bills to come. I called older brother to let him know I was doing it and why. He didn't even pause to question my decision. It's funny - he and I get into major arguments about once a month now but it is always about moms condition and care - never about money. Anytime we discuss money his only concern is that she has enough to keep her comfortably for the rest of her life. All three of us agree that it's moms money - period. If we spend every dime keeping mom comfortable and as happy and healthy as her condition allows - and not living with any of us - that it's money well spent. We all acknowlege we may not receive a dime upon her death.
While both my brothers can annoy the hell out of me - one for lack of involvement, the other for over involment but reading this thread has made me realize I've got it pretty good. Maybe the POA sister could have handled things differently - maybe not. But without knowing both sides it's impossible to tell. Im just counting my blessings at this point!

I'm one (#5), of six kid's, and we lost both our parents 11 & 12 years ago. We Never had any of the problems that you seem to be having, None! Perhaps it is because you seem to be only thinking about the money that you may come into some day, and I've heard nothing to the contrary. Never once have I heard either ALARMED1 OR ALARMED2, even mention anything about their Mothers well being, except for the one "offer" to move their obviously frail Mother, across the country to another Elder Facility, in my eyes, as a further means to gather control of Mother and her Monies. I mean, what possibly, could Mother gain, from such a move, being uprooted from everything she is accustomed and everyone she knows? It doesn't sound like that would be in Mother's Best Interest! And squabbling about an old car, yes, it must be at least 7 years old by now, if not older, that the POA, likely uses to care for, vist, run endless errands for Mother, is plain silly. The OP, in her original post, stated, that Mother has a SIZEABLE ESTATE, so what difference, really, does an old car make, in the scheme of things? When our Father had passed, and Mom remained, each of us 6 siblings fell naturally into our roles as help mates to our Eldest sister, who had our Mom living in her home, and on Hospice. Obviously the biggest burden fell to her as primary caregiver, but each and every one of us assumed roles that would be most beneficial to her and to helping our Mom, live out the end of her life, as comfortable as possible. Our two brothers, assumed the roles of carpenters, building ramps, installing an air conditioning unit in our Mom's room, running cable for TV, entertainment for our Mom, Sister 2, cooked and cleaned for the endless people coming through the ever revolving door, for Mom, my eldest sisters family other family, Hospice and health care, and also visiting with Mom, Sister 3, and I took turns with healthcare needs, bathing, hair washing, toileting, hair and nails, stool evacuation ( yea, that was Fun!), errands, medication dosing, visiting with Mom, food preparation, All the while, my eldest sister was running her husbands carpet installation business out of their home, YES, it takes a village, and it doesn't seem like your Sister with POA, is getting any assistance from either of you, and yet, all you seem to be cocerned with is your Mom's money, and an old car, and that your Sister is "better off financially than you". Well isn't that poor planning on your part! And still you won't say just how HUGE, your sister's wages are (that you agreed to ) in caring for your Mom, and all of her personal and financial needs. In the end, after our Mom died, the third of September 11 years ago, it was our Mom's wish, that my brother's together try their best to finalize all of her and our Dad's estate by Christmas, to give us all our inheritance monies, and it wasn't large, but there is a lot to do, with banks, investments, life insurance, burial expenses, closing accounts, notifying SS, pensions, here and in the UK, but they managed to get it all done, except for the years taxes, where as we all got a bit more, and put that money to great use, taking a mini cruise, all together with our spouses, to celebrate our Job Well Done, in caring collectively and cohesively for our parents. In the week before Christmas, our Brothers put together a beautiful letter, thanking us all for sticking together, in caring for our folks, and how proud we all should feel, for the way in which we handled everything, and that our parents would have been proud olso. They also gave each of us an itemized accounting of how it all broke down financially, clear concise and simple. So I say to you 2 sisters, try to quit squabbling over the use of your Moms old car, how financially stable your sister is, and unless you have very Large concerns, over the way in which your sister is handling Mom's finances, try looking at the big picture, she is there, day in and day out, looking out for not only Mom's finances, but her wellbeing first and foremost! Perhaps you could go there for a time, and offer her some assistance, you're gonna catch more bee's with honey! She is probably chronically Stressed Out, dealing with your Mom, and there you are, oblivious halfway across the country! Think about it!

StaceyB, your family is a model for the time when family need to pull together and work together for the benefit of the parent.

If Alarmed is still around, she could well take advice from your experiences.

Stacey, how wonderful that you and your sibs were able to work together for your folks benefit! Do not read enough stories like that here.

As you know my situation is similar to Alarmed's. But I was the 24/7 caregiver for Mom at home, and sib POA was rarely available for anything. And the court battle because she was concerned about paying me to provide care because then there would be less left for her when Mom passed. Yes, I actually have an e-mail that she states she wants to be fair, but mom wanted money left for all of us. Absurd! Just so ugly, especially how sisters can get!

I;m still trying to figure out the "HUGE salary" mentioned numerous times... when everyone admits they have NO idea what she is getting. What am I missing? OMG it;s a car! not a house or property!.

BTW.. she asked when it will stop? Upon death, and then I fear the real drama will begin

And an OLD CAR at that! Unless it is a very expensive Classic, or a Rolls Royce, I doubt it could be worth more than 8 thousand dollars!

Alarm and Alarmtoo.
If I were you, I would be grateful for the thought and time that the many posters have given you on this board. The responders are not clairvoyant.
Unless you are bedridden, I wonder about the reasons as to why you have not visited your sister while you have been concerned. Flying is not the only wa y to travel across the country.
I manage the household affairs of my SO. It is not an easy job and takes at least 1.5 hrs/day. Now I am considering seeking a financial conservator for his messy financial affairs. His sons have abandoned him because he is so stubborn.
If this issue is sufficiently important to you both, then hire an attorney. You can pay them on a credit card. FYI a mediator does not represent your interests exclusively, unless he is acting in that capacity.

I'm still waiting for an answer on what the 3 sisters have done - how many times have they traveled to help relieve their sister who's on site, or do they just visit to check out what's going on? Questions asked have not been answered, especially the issue of the fact that the 3 sisters didn't ask for a written agreement at the time payment was agreed on, and it wasn't until 4 years later that it seems the issues became a concern.

I could be really horrible but I am practising being nice in readiness for 2016 - I think all the contributors have responded with incredible insight. My major concern would be like Stacey why would you move a woman who by the very fact that she is in a nursing home, is clearly frail but who will be settled and know the people and staff there to another state where she knows no-one. Even when people are brain damaged or have dementia some can still recognise their surroundings by smell and sound and that alone gives them a feeling of security and safety.

If there were any justice ALL the money would be spent on the provision of the very best in care

If mom has been in a nursing home for six years, I would guess $720K for the nursing home has already been spent. Add in medical insurance and co pays and a million dollars is already gone. Mom deserved every penny, I hope she left the rest to charity.

I don't think we'll hear back from the Alarmed Sisters - I think they've picked up their rubber ball and left the building. I truely don't think they expected to get the responses they did - which is hard to imagine as from their first post to their last this was clearly about money first, vindictiveness towards POA sister second and self centered cluelessness third or maybe cluelessness first? The car thing really got me - resenting that sister used the car while they were experiencing financial difficulties. That taking the car from sister would not effect their situation one bit - they just didn't want her to have something they didn't - how childishly vindictive can you get?!!! The insinuations regarding the "big, bad lawyer" - as if he is muscle for the mob instead of a legal representative - I mean I know there are some unscrupulous lawyers out there, but really? I could go on but I realize everyone sees this situation for what it is - well, except the sisters. I wish they could see what they wrote with objective eyes - if they don't manage to polish up their act and this does make it to court, they may find a complete stranger managing things and then they'll really find out what a HUGE salary is.

Poor Alarmed1&2 were like cats that wandered into the dog pound; most of us here are the on the spot caregivers for out loved ones, many are POA and many have gotten grief from relatives who criticize from afar.

I said to do the math, and pams obliged, but in the end will they will still probably believe that somehow the money is lining the POA's pockets.

cwillie absolutely spot on there are none so blind as those who will not see and none so deaf as those who will not hear, I would like to think they will learn and understand but I wouldn't pin my hopes on it.

Rainmom is right too; if they go the legal route and the court appoints they will find out who the big boys/girls are and what a huge salary really is, because with that level of mistrust the courts will appoint a legal eagle not a family member for sure.

As for the car - words still fail me - did they expect the sibling to get on the bus or hitchhike when there was a perfectly good usable car sat in the garage? Perhaps they expected her to sell it and split the money 4 ways? never gonna happen - the money would have to have gone into the estate it was not theirs to have.

I understand the frustrations of financial difficulty I really really do trust me but to take that out on a sibling who is doing the lions share of the work as she is visiting and is nearest just adds to her stress - Perhaps she should sue them for harassment?

As cwillie pointed out, most of you who responded are the on the spot caregivers, many are POA and many have gotten grief from relatives who criticize from afar. No, we are not like cats that wandered into the dog pound. Just think for a moment how your siblings might feel if you managed everything, refused questions, and refused discussion about anything. We are in a situation where we can’t even get information about my mom’s care from my sister anymore. Yes Rainmom, she's been doing the majority of the work, however we have not been questioning the manner in which she's been doing it. We’ve been praising her for years and thanking her. We wrote asking for your help!

Our mom had a massive stroke 6 years ago. We have traveled many times to visit, to help, to support, to do whatever was needed. This involves an expense, involves using whatever small amount of vacation we may have, and of course dealing with the completely stressed out POA during the visit. We go to help and to try to bring love to our mom. When both Alarmedtoo and I made an offer to move my mom closer to either of us, it was early on, before she became attached to the people who help her in the nursing home 24/7. We wanted the chance to see my mom more and help more, but what you’re missing is that the POA “IS” a control freak or loves the feeling of being in charge, even at times controlling who can visit my mom without the POAs supervision. At the time we offered to move her, it was “NOT NEGOTIABLE”, and neither of us pursued it further since the POA insisted on having it her way. As jeannegibbs stated, those attitudes don't win friends and influence family, but they are not illegal. Maybe the solution you’re suggesting would be to quit our jobs, sell our house, and move closer to our mom.

The whole issue with the car was just to try to understand what information we are allowed to have access to. I guess if I was POA, I would want to make sure that no one thought I was “lining my pockets”, and it would be clear what $’s were coming in and going out. This is what I call transparent. When we try to discuss the financial information even a tiny bit, we get stonewalled, which is why the car issue became big. It isn’t about how much one sister has or how much another sister doesn’t have. It is about being fair and even handed, which is what my mother would want. The POA gave up her own car lease, and took a practically new car at the time, saving $18-$24,000. This is pretty huge in my mind, but this is only what we know about. We are not being vindictive, however there are many things that are being done in “my mom’s best interest”, that seem sketchy. So should we continue to just shut up because the POA feels that she doesn’t need to communicate? We have not harassed anyone ohJude. If anything, receiving a letter from a lawyer would be considered harassment. You mentioned APS. What is that?

Adult Protective Services. Good luck.

Alarmed would you be willing to pay an accountant to look at you mom's finances? Course your sis would have to agree. APS is Adult Protective Services the agency you should contact if you think POA is doing anything against the law or contrary to instructions within the POA. You might try that.

Alarmed, I like cats ;) I'm just saying you must feel you wandered into the wrong forum because of the responses you've gotten. And I understand and agree, if sis wasn't so secretive you all wouldn't feel so..."alarmed". (Sorry, that little play on words started out as unintentional lol)

I am not an attorney. But I have lived a similar experience which resulted in my name not even being mentioned in mother's will. I was the first born and lost all inheritance rights by what appears to be a manipulative sister 17 yrs. younger than me. I say take your story as stated here, to a good lawyer if for no other reason than your peace of mind. Your questions and concerns are fair and logical. As an equal beneficiary, I say you have a right to a continuing flow of honest information about these family matters. All the best to you and your sibs in this .

What about checking with DR's and/or Staff at the community where your Mom is--maybe see about your POA sister's demenure when there, or even appearence--sometimes people change when around access to money.
I saw it when family members of my wife were "looking after" her father and living with him. Took almost a year to find out it was my FIL supporting them!

Okay - I'm going to take another go at this - your situation has been on my mind since you first posted. I think it's an excellent idea to get an objective third party involved in trying to resolve this situation. Adult Protective Services is one option. Their primary objective would be to investigate whether or not your POA sister is misusing/mishandling your mothers assets and therefore your mother. Your mothers well being will be their singular focus. In regards to you and your sisters the issues of who has/gets what won't matter. And honestly - I don't think the whole car thing would be viewed as an issue unless your sister never uses it for moms benefit. If APS determines there is no abuse of your mother or her finances that will be the end of it for them. They will have no power to change the terms of the POA or the matter of how much she shares with you. They may however be able to put an end to the salary issue - deeming it a misuse regardless of what was or was not agreed upon among the four of you - as it was never written into the POA and agreed to by your mom. I am aware of no laws that automatically allow the draw of a salary in this regard vs say an executor of a will who is automatically allowed 2% of a total estate for the work they will be doing - at least here in Oregon that is the law and a probate judge gives it automatically unless the executor formally requests no salary. So while APS will investigate at no cost to you - it may not change anything in the end. In my opinion getting an attorney and requesting mediation would be your best bet. While a lawyer will cost you a pretty penny, going through mediation would be less expensive than actually going to court. Also mediation may also allow for more flexible results - in the case of a court/judge situation you could find yourselves in a "winner takes all" situation and if you don't prevail, again nothing would change regarding the POA and you all will be out a lot of money for lawyers and court fees - plus this could take a considerable amount of time. This next part I say with complete sincerity; if you and your sister hope to "win" you've got to stop making this about money, the car, what you and POA sister do or don't have. You must make this about your mothers well fair. Period. As I said in my first post I do not take a salary - I don't need the money but if I did, I might view a salary differently. I also try to be transparent and leave a paper trail with every cent I spend - but that's just me and my choice in how I handle my situation - it's not a solution or requirment that fits everyone. Your POA sister may be mishandling things, she may not. If she was - she wouldn't be the first and won't be the last. Maybe she is a control freak - may be not, but that's not against the law- just annoying when one is on the other end of it. Please think through how you and your sister proceed. There is a real chance that your mothers affairs could end up in the hands of a stranger - who in fact will be well paid.

Wow. She's charming - no wonder POA sent her Big Bad Lawyer to tell her to back off. But yeah Garden Artist, stupid me - I was thinking the exact same thing. But after all - we are ALL wrong and unsympathetic. The poor thing has been victimized yet again!

Alarmed1 & 2, sometimes us long time writers on this forum need to use tough love to get the points across because we are able to see the forest for the trees.

Right I am going to assume these are not one and the same making mischief and if you are two people who have integrity then I apologise but we have had people on here before who have been less than factual

I also hope that the person who did do the care was in their words stressed is not on this site.

You said ‘
she's been doing the majority of the work,……We’ve been praising her for years and thanking her.

To her face maybe but not in real terms

You also said ‘ have traveled many times to visit, to help, to support, to do whatever was needed. This involves an expense, involves using whatever small amount of vacation we may have, and of course dealing with the completely stressed out POA during the visit. ‘

I will grant that she has not behaved in what I would consider an appropriate manner with regard to communication she is probably feeling that she is under interrogation but thanks just doesn't cut it. Going to help, really help, means giving that sister a complete break. instead you didn't because if you had you would not have been ‘dealing’ with her - a phrase incidentally I find intensely offensive….you couldn't even say ‘our sister’ you said the POA like she is someone totally alienated from you and I imagine that is JUST who she feels

You went to visit. But you aren’t acknowledging that she had to prepare for that visit and was probably knocked sideways by the preparation. You may take it in your stride, your sister clearly didn't - all marks of anxiety and stress and probably depression too. You are not seeing this and then you suggest taking Mum away from her - you may have had best intentions but your sister may well have read that as I am a failure

Of course calling your sibling a control freak doesn't really help the matter either. I control who can visit Mum entirely - I am not a control freak I just wont have Mum upset and if someone HAS to visit who WILL upset her (usually a doctor or one particular relative. My brother is forbidden to visit because he is a risk to her well being and thats a court decision I might add) I don't have a problem insisting they come at a time that suits me. I will damned well be there to support my Mum and to hell with what anyone thinks about that. That is about actually caring for my Mums well being so don't dismiss it as being a control freak in ALL cases. Please note I also live with my Mum so I am usually available but I wont be pushed into times that don’t suit our routine for it is routine that keeps ME sane

If your sibling (and I do mean IF your sibling) has been acting correctly, and lets just assume this for the moment even if you don't agree, then I imagine as she is stressed out she would see having extra duties thrust on her by you as the straw she is not prepared to put on her back

The whole issue of the car and the ‘lining of pockets’ (gosh I hate that term too) you say is about being fair and even handed. There was an almost new car available and noone was using it. Then why shouldn’t your sibling use it to go visit your Mum as much as she probably does (given her ‘control freak’ nature). It IS in your Mums best interests to have visitors it IS in your Mums best interests that a POA visits to ensure money is being spent wisely and that Mum is getting the care that is being paid for. Can she use it outside that? Of course she can that is reasonable. What isn't reasonable is that she should hire or buy one when one is sat there doing nothing. If she had sold it you would not have benefited and your sister would have been put under more pressure

Why do you think she invoked the use of a lawyer if she didn't feel harassed? A letter from a lawyer would not say back off - it would explain why….

IF you think she is misappropriating funds then call in the APS and I would support that 2000% never mind 100%. Be aware that it may cost a lot of money to have the finances investigated BUT if your sister IS taking money out that she shouldn't be, and I have to say that without a contract signed by you all she is on dodgy ground, then she needs to be shown for the thief/fraudster you believe her to be and dealt with by the authorities as such for financial abuse is a criminal offence, make no mistake about it

I can also tell you something else - the court will almost certainly appoint someone else to preside over your mother’s affairs and that will really cost so you need to weigh up what you want to do.

For me mediation would be the only route I would consider whereby you ask to see the financials every 6 months or every year, or offer input to help your sister prepare the financial returns to the tax man. or suggest that an accountant takes over this role and provides you all with a financial breakdown each year.

Finally let me address one paragraph

Maybe the solution you’re suggesting would be to quit our jobs, sell our house, and move closer to our mom. -

Absolutely not - there isn't one person on here who would advocate that - you all have your own lives to live.

Alarmed, I think you were sincerely worried when you originally posted your questions. And I hope that there were posts here that helped answer your questions. I still think your idea of involving a mediator is a good one. Mediators are trained to sift through complicated situations, find areas of agreement, and build on them. That seems very desirable considering that there are four of you sisters involved, and --- apparently --- you all start from agreement that your mother is receiving the best of care with your eldest sister as POA. That's a great start.

I'm wondering about the dynamic among the four of you. Did all three of the non-POAs spontaneously begin to suspect misdealing or did one of you bring the idea to the others? Where is the third non-POA sister in this tangle? We haven't heard from her or about her.

Also, why did the POA sister refer the rest of you to the lawyer? If the POA is comfortable bringing an attorney into it, it sounds like her conscience is clear. It also sounds as if somebody must have made a pretty powerful accusation or threat against her to make her feel she needed the lawyer's backup. Or must have nagged at her beyond endurance.

Good luck.