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The fact you are asking this question really peaks my interest. It would be best if a person realizes their own diminished abilities and decides to turn in their car keys. However, a person with dementia will not realize that their decision-making functions have declined to the point of becoming a hazard on the road. In that case, it might be wisest to talk to the local department of motor vehicles or local police about a "safe driver" test to determine if the time has come to stop driving. If you see that this time is coming for yourself or a loved one, start researching all the other ways of getting around: bus, Uber, Lift, family, friends, and even special services through the city or county/province.
I am of the opinion that gunny has dementia because he never comes back to his posts. Never. There have been many. I think he forgets that he posts here.
Mom was turning 90 and her DL was expiring. She had to go to the DMV to pass the written test. After 2 attempts and arguing with DMV staff, she gave up her DL. Prior to this she had a situation where she was backing out of her driveway to run an errand and went careening across the street and up and into the neighbors hedge against their house. The hedged saved her and the car from going into their house. She claimed the brakes failed (to this day) and she couldn’t stop. A neighbor drove her car back into her garage and told me her car worked fine. After this and not renewing her license, she mentioned on several occasions to my sister and I that this wouldn’t prevent her from running short errands. We told her about the implications if she got in an accident, injured someone or herself, etc. She was oblivious. We sold her car asap. There are those who clearly shouldn’t be driving, but still do. They’re ticking time bombs and unfortunately they or others will get hurt in one wrong move.
The DMV. However, the DMV may not know a person is not safe to drive unless they get in to an accident. Some states such as California have a mandatory reporting requirement for doctors. That means if a person has a medical condition that potentially makes them unsafe, their docto is required to report it to the DMV. The DMV then conducts an in depth medical review as well as extensive on road and written testing to determione whether they are safe drivers. The most common diagnosis that triggers a review is dementia. And in California, anyone can download the form and report someone to the DMV. Other states do not have a mandatory reporting requirement but if a doctor tells a patient they should no longer drive in a normal office visit, and the person subsequently gets in to an accident, their insurance will not cover any of the damages or liability incurred as a result of the accident. So if a court hold the person liable for causing the accident, they will have to pay up out of their own pocket.
I took my daddy off the insurance. He had ALZ. He would forget that he was not allowed to drive but he knew he needed insurance. So when he would say "I'm going to the store" I would say "You are not allowed to drive because you are no longer have insurance to drive the car" he was mad because in his long term memory he knew he couldn't drive without insurance be he would forget. So I would drive him where he wanted to go to the store. It was just usually to get a candy or to get out of the house. It didn't last long because soon he became house bound and forgot about going out.
I was fortunate that my husband with advanced Parkinson Disease was somewhat aware of his limitations. One day while I was at work, he lost his balance and fell in the kitchen and bloodied the right side of his face and shirt. Just a few minutes later he got in his SUV and went thru the drive thru of his favorite fast-food place to pick up lunch. When I got home, I was shocked to find him with blood on his face and shirt. This episode prompted an immediate appointment with his neurologist who told my husband that the actions he took and the actions he failed to take following the fall all demonstrated severe lack of judgment and that driving not only requires brain and muscle coordination, it also requires split second decision-making. Then the DOCTOR told him in my presence that he needed to stop driving as he could pose a risk not only to himself but to others. Without complaint, my husband never drove again. I was grateful that the doctor was unafraid to speak the truth to his patient.
That is exactly correct. Unless of course the Internet experts decide that dementia is of the same severity in every person. Then they can crow about how UNSAFE these monsters ...might...be. Accidents happen to ALL people. .........................................Dementia or perfect health.
I went through this with my father. His PCP reported him to the DMV, when he (the PCP) determined my dad had dementia. Even after I went to the licensing office with him, and saw his license removed and ID given, he of course insisted it never happened. I was told by an attorney that I (daughter, even with Durable power of attorney) could not legally take take his car away and they even advised against putting a club on the steering wheel. They assured me that I would not be held liable if there was an accident. Of course HE would be.
That being said, I always agonized over this, as I didn't want him to continue to drive, nor risk hurting someone. However, my dad had been working on cars all his life, so if I pulled the coil wire he might have figured it out (being an older memory)...and if I put the club on his car, he was definitely capable of buying another car to get around that. He was a very stubborn man.
Luckily no wrecks happened, and I was able to get him moved into an adult family home.
Being stubborn and knowing how to fix cars would have been no consolation to any “unlucky” victims. The DMV/police/doctors/social workers cannot advise anyone to do anything illegal but family members can take preventive actions to eliminate the risk, in this case.
A Dr who has diagnosed dementia or some other illness that affects ability to drive safely. They will make a recommendation in the medical records that shows person should not drive.
I have heard that if an accident happens and is determined to be the fault of the ill person, car insurance may not pay any claim since they can get medical records and see the person was determined not safe to drive. So if there’s and accident, and the witnesses or police can tell the person seems “off” if that goes in the police report, insurance can get medical records.
I have heard this, however I’m not sure if it’s true or if it depends on the insurance company. There would be a lot of variables…witnesses, what the police observe and put in their report etc. Info. An also be given to local DMV. Get rid of drivers license and get a state ID card.
Obviously, it’s really up to family, POA, guardian and/or caregivers to enforce no driving. That’s the tricky part for most. Hide the keys. Take the car and store it somewhere else or sell it. If the person has dementia, tell them it’s in the shop, make up what’s called a “therapeutic fib”.
I went through this with my Mother recently, fyi in some states they will go ahead and issue a driver’s licenses to anyone that has one and requests a renewal in spite of Dr. Filing documents to say they are not eligible to drive due to Alzheimer’s / dementia. Thankfully I have a wonderful caregiver!!
A local academic medical center does driving assessments. I know someone who voluntarily took the assessment. She didn't have dementia, but uses a walker and a host of physical illnesses, a number of recent falls. She passed, to her relief and that of her son and daughter-in-law.
My grandfather had been a commissioned officer in the military. He developed dementia and insisted he could still drive as family members tried to end his driving. My grandparents had only one car so getting rid of the car was not an option. My uncle enlisted a friend who was in the state highway patrol to tell my grandfather he couldn’t drive anymore. It worked. He respected the uniform and never drove again. I think it takes someone outside the family (doctor, friend they respect, etc) to effectively end the LOs driving. Unfortunately not all states require testing of elderly drivers so their licenses get renewed.
Family can request a driving assessment thru PCP and it’s done by certain OTs and they include assessment of executive function/neglect/inattention in the report….this way other family can’t dispute the findings as it’s very specific. Then if they continue driving as others mentioned, go online and file report with DMV who will investigate as I had to do this also in MO
DMV makes the legal decision. Family and health care professionals can AND SHOULD report any unsafe driver. The driver will then have medical records reviewed and be required to take a driving evaluation. If they pass, they can continue to drive but they are now "on the radar" and may be required to take a re-evaluation every year or two. If they do not pass their license is immediately revoked. Family should take the keys and get rid of the car at that point, since many seniors do not understand that knowing how to drive and many years experience is not the same as having the reflexes to drive safely.
You or his doctor can report the driver to DMV who will suspend his license. Try to take the keys away from him, but he may fight it like crazy. If the driver continues operating the car, disable the vehicle.
DMV (based on MD / police reports (?) MD (assessment / cognitive functioning) Police (stopping a person or attending to an accident)
Due to dementia situations, it is sometimes, if not often, the responsibility of the family to insure that an unsafe driver not allowed to start the car.
Some people who should not be driving due to brain changes/brain cells dying still believe they can drive - and will if given the opportunity. They can be very ... forceful / angry when broaching this subject. Understand that it is a huge loss of independence and fear is 'talking' wanting to maintain control. Their position is understandable and yet, if they might maim or kill others or themselves, immediate changes must be enforced.
There are several ways to interrupt / stop a person from driving: * Change the car key on their key ring so the door won't open (although some cars don't need keys, they need the mechanism to 'click' the door open). * Disengage part of the mechanical aspect of the car (starter?). I am not sure what it is, although it is a part that can be disengaged / taken out so the car won't start. * Notify the local police. They need to be aware of an unsafe / dementia inflicted driver on the road. * Lose the keys. * Flatten a tire although this could be expensive and not worse it - try other options first. * Move the car out of sight / out of the area / sell it * If person has 24/7 care-giver, insure that the caregiver knows the situation and will not allow the person to be in the driver's seat (shockingly, a caregiver of one of my clients allowed her to sit in the car and start driving ... even though she had severe dementia).
Won't likely help: * Telling a person that they cannot / shouldn't be driving any longer.
First: * Contact MD and ask for written notification that car owner should not legally be driving any longer - take that to DMV.
Second (or first) * Google / watch Teepa Snow You Tubes / her website about this. She had or has several webinars specifically discussing this need / issue, and how to communicate with elder who shouldn't be driving.
i pretty much decided my mom wont be driving any more when she sat in her car and asked me to go get someone cuz she didnt know what to do. that was after not remembering how to start her car. and i decided to sell her car so it wont be a constant issue having it parked in the driveway. i wish her doctor had said something to her but she didnt so my mom wasnt convinced she has any problem cuz of that and cuz i am not a doctor.
but i think she is realizing her mind isnt what it used to be. she wont admit it but does make comments sometimes about how good i take care of her.
I’m my humble opinion, if there is even the slightest doubt, then the person should not drive. Dementia works in mysterious and unpredictable ways. Uber is a wonderful service. Get the app and give it a try.
And, there are cab services that offer coupons / free rides to elders in need. Call County Senior Services and ask for transportation options.
lUber / Lyft I hear is now costly although it surely is an option. Although the issue or key is how the person who shouldn't be driving reacts / responds and adjusts. The 'easier' part is finding other modes of transportation.
Department of Motor Vehicles decides. Also be VERY leery of any doctor "suggesting" a .....cognitive test. Those test results are reported to motor vehicle departments and the interpretation of them depends on the expertise of the doctor. Be aware of that.
My older adult has a cognitive psych evaluation in May. So does that mean that whatever her diagnosis is (or isn't) will be reported to the DMV? She has been showing symptoms of dementia for some time, and I don't think even my older adult can present as "normal" in a 2-3 hour evaluation.
Oh. Perhaps AgingCare management needs to know. Thank you for alerting us. Still, others may gleam some valuable information from our posts (hope so ! )
My father's doctor completed a form and sent it to the DMV based on his physical and mental condition. The DMV reviewed the report and then cancelled my father's license - meaning he does not have a valid drivers license. In Wisconsin there is an appeal process. Some DMV's offer a driving test for seniors. But my father continues to drive in his small town. He thinks because he still physically has his license it means he 'has' his license. I've tried to explain it to him. I've spoken with our local police. They said cannot cite him for driving without a valid license until he commits a violation. My next step is to take the keys away. He was a truck driver all his life. It will be devastating for him. It will mean more work for me to schedule rides for him, especially in his small town. But I cannot take the chance that he could hurt someone while driving.
My husband is not quite there. He's still safe to drive around our little neighborhood, but I'm the nervous wife. Like you, I don't want to risk him hurting someone. Over time he gets less cooperative, more resistant, almost combative ... verbally ... on the rare occasion.
Husband's doctor has already told me there is a form if that day comes. Hubs and I will both hate it if he completely loses his independence, but we both know that is where it is heading.
We only have 1 car. It won't be hard to keep him from keys. I can't imagine how hard that is with a parent, especially a truck driver. All these words are my way of saying I respect your outlook and feel for you.
If you aren't a safe driver, the state decides whether you continue, mostly based upon reports made by other witnesses of the bad/dangerous driving.
My cousins should have stopped my Uncle from driving. He went through a red light one day and got t-boned which killed his wife and dog. His wife was a 2x ovarian cancer survivor and was also being treated at the Mayo for a heart condition (and beating it).
I worked to get my MIL's license retired because she forgot the brake vs. the gas pedal and nearly ran down children getting off a school bus.
Her husband (my stepFIL) had Parkinsons and kept driving even when his muscle motor skills were so compromised he'd usually fall in the parking lot he just drove to. I had his license retires (with the helpf of a social worker).
My 2 single Aunts in FL drove as a pilot and co-pilot. The driver had triple vision and the other never had a driver's license, so she was her eyes and talked her through what to do (I wish I was making this up). They were in their late 80s. Their car looked like it was in a pinball machine. I reported my Aunt anonymously to the DMV and got her license suspended.
My friend's Mom had a memory blip and got lost driving for 14 hours.
It doesn't even have to be anything that dramatic... maybe just taking out mailboxes or drifting over the white line. Why wait for a tragedy?
If your guardian thinks you are unsafe to drive, please trust them. A car is a weapon if the driver isn't 100% capable.
DMV. But, someone has to alert the DMV that there might be a problem. You can do it anonymously. If you believe someone should not be driving because they are unsafe to themselves and others, go to the DMV website and download the document to report your concerns.
If a doctor has made the determination that you are no longer able to safely have the right to drive a form can be submitted to the Department of Motor Vehicles and your license can be suspended. If someone is a Guardian for a person that is incapacitated the Guardian can make that decision. You can appeal the license suspension by asking for a hearing.
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I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
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Gunny01 has not responded once on this -- or the other 2 threads with a similar topic --
This OP has issues and already seems to have a daughter who is her court-appointed legal guardian. She is railing against this authority.
She has a guardian for a reason.
it also sounds like he is in a conservatorship
After this and not renewing her license, she mentioned on several occasions to my sister and I that this wouldn’t prevent her from running short errands. We told her about the implications if she got in an accident, injured someone or herself, etc. She was oblivious. We sold her car asap.
There are those who clearly shouldn’t be driving, but still do. They’re ticking time bombs and unfortunately they or others will get hurt in one wrong move.
The most common diagnosis that triggers a review is dementia. And in California, anyone can download the form and report someone to the DMV. Other states do not have a mandatory reporting requirement but if a doctor tells a patient they should no longer drive in a normal office visit, and the person subsequently gets in to an accident, their insurance will not cover any of the damages or liability incurred as a result of the accident. So if a court hold the person liable for causing the accident, they will have to pay up out of their own pocket.
Unless of course the Internet experts decide that dementia is of the same severity in every person. Then they can crow about how UNSAFE these monsters ...might...be.
Accidents happen to ALL people.
.........................................Dementia or perfect health.
That being said, I always agonized over this, as I didn't want him to continue to drive, nor risk hurting someone. However, my dad had been working on cars all his life, so if I pulled the coil wire he might have figured it out (being an older memory)...and if I put the club on his car, he was definitely capable of buying another car to get around that. He was a very stubborn man.
Luckily no wrecks happened, and I was able to get him moved into an adult family home.
I have heard that if an accident happens and is determined to be the fault of the ill person, car insurance may not pay any claim since they can get medical records and see the person was determined not safe to drive. So if there’s and accident, and the witnesses or police can tell the person seems “off” if that goes in the police report, insurance can get medical records.
I have heard this, however I’m not sure if it’s true or if it depends on the insurance company. There would be a lot of variables…witnesses, what the police observe and put in their report etc. Info. An also be given to local DMV. Get rid of drivers license and get a state ID card.
Obviously, it’s really up to family, POA, guardian and/or caregivers to enforce no driving. That’s the tricky part for most. Hide the keys. Take the car and store it somewhere else or sell it. If the person has dementia, tell them it’s in the shop, make up what’s called a “therapeutic fib”.
DMV (based on MD / police reports (?)
MD (assessment / cognitive functioning)
Police (stopping a person or attending to an accident)
Due to dementia situations, it is sometimes, if not often, the responsibility of the family to insure that an unsafe driver not allowed to start the car.
Some people who should not be driving due to brain changes/brain cells dying still believe they can drive - and will if given the opportunity. They can be very ... forceful / angry when broaching this subject. Understand that it is a huge loss of independence and fear is 'talking' wanting to maintain control. Their position is understandable and yet, if they might maim or kill others or themselves, immediate changes must be enforced.
There are several ways to interrupt / stop a person from driving:
* Change the car key on their key ring so the door won't open (although some cars don't need keys, they need the mechanism to 'click' the door open).
* Disengage part of the mechanical aspect of the car (starter?). I am not sure what it is, although it is a part that can be disengaged / taken out so the car won't start.
* Notify the local police. They need to be aware of an unsafe / dementia inflicted driver on the road.
* Lose the keys.
* Flatten a tire although this could be expensive and not worse it - try other options first.
* Move the car out of sight / out of the area / sell it
* If person has 24/7 care-giver, insure that the caregiver knows the situation and will not allow the person to be in the driver's seat (shockingly, a caregiver of one of my clients allowed her to sit in the car and start driving ... even though she had severe dementia).
Won't likely help:
* Telling a person that they cannot / shouldn't be driving any longer.
First:
* Contact MD and ask for written notification that car owner should not legally be driving any longer - take that to DMV.
Second (or first)
* Google / watch Teepa Snow You Tubes / her website about this. She had or has several webinars specifically discussing this need / issue, and how to communicate with elder who shouldn't be driving.
Gena / Touch Matters
but i think she is realizing her mind isnt what it used to be. she wont admit it but does make comments sometimes about how good i take care of her.
Call County Senior Services and ask for transportation options.
lUber / Lyft I hear is now costly although it surely is an option.
Although the issue or key is how the person who shouldn't be driving reacts / responds and adjusts. The 'easier' part is finding other modes of transportation.
Gena / Touch Matters
Also be VERY leery of any doctor "suggesting" a .....cognitive test.
Those test results are reported to motor vehicle departments and the interpretation of them depends on the expertise of the doctor.
Be aware of that.
Husband's doctor has already told me there is a form if that day comes. Hubs and I will both hate it if he completely loses his independence, but we both know that is where it is heading.
We only have 1 car. It won't be hard to keep him from keys. I can't imagine how hard that is with a parent, especially a truck driver. All these words are my way of saying I respect your outlook and feel for you.
My cousins should have stopped my Uncle from driving. He went through a red light one day and got t-boned which killed his wife and dog. His wife was a 2x ovarian cancer survivor and was also being treated at the Mayo for a heart condition (and beating it).
I worked to get my MIL's license retired because she forgot the brake vs. the gas pedal and nearly ran down children getting off a school bus.
Her husband (my stepFIL) had Parkinsons and kept driving even when his muscle motor skills were so compromised he'd usually fall in the parking lot he just drove to. I had his license retires (with the helpf of a social worker).
My 2 single Aunts in FL drove as a pilot and co-pilot. The driver had triple vision and the other never had a driver's license, so she was her eyes and talked her through what to do (I wish I was making this up). They were in their late 80s. Their car looked like it was in a pinball machine. I reported my Aunt anonymously to the DMV and got her license suspended.
My friend's Mom had a memory blip and got lost driving for 14 hours.
It doesn't even have to be anything that dramatic... maybe just taking out mailboxes or drifting over the white line. Why wait for a tragedy?
If your guardian thinks you are unsafe to drive, please trust them. A car is a weapon if the driver isn't 100% capable.
Good Luck.
"I need assistance with finding a good lawyer to represent me with fighting against my daughter who is trying to get my money"
The confusion is who is writing this post. The person doing the caring or the father.
Whichever, you need a lawyer. If there is a guardian that person is in charge.
POA when doctor says it is unsafe.
DMV after examination if someone suggests, requests, with good documentation.
If someone is a Guardian for a person that is incapacitated the Guardian can make that decision.
You can appeal the license suspension by asking for a hearing.