Dad can hardly walk without holding onto something and he wants to go hunting. How do I tell him no?

"Then it was "did you order my license?"

Let him order his own license.

"He wants to drive 8 hours to camp. I am against it but I can't stop him."

" I know the family and friends will look out for him "

So let him go to camp with his family/friends and let them take care of him. Sounds like it might be a nice break for you!

Ah, old guys, guns, and hunting. Great combo.

I grew up hunting with my dad and uncles and we had the occasional old feller who had no business staggering around in the woods with a deer rifle. I have a couple neighbors like that now. Freaks me out when I see them head into the woods.

And they get killed up here in northern Michigan. Fall out of tree stands, shoot each other, heat attacks, just all kinds of mayhem.

It's like the elder driving thing. Hard to shut em down.

Does dad drive himself? You have to drive him? Eight friggin hours?!

I think you should just say no. Enough is enough. But if he's still independent how do you keep him from going?

What about his buddies. Where are they with all this? They don't mind taking care of him for a week? Maybe tell the other Elmer Fudds that it's all on them. You said no, so good luck with whatever happens.

CTT, must have been typing at the same time!

Tgengine, I'm going to be the blunt one to raise issues which were discussed at great length sometime ago. That post was when difficulties were occurring with your other relatives living in and disrupting your household activities.

I believe it was your daughter (or sister ? ) who brought her uncooperative husband and they were sponging off you and your wife, compromising the quality of life. There were pages and pages of suggestions.

It's not my intent to be critical or caustic, but several of us suggested that you really needed to stand up to them, and stop letting them overwhelm and manipulate you. And I suspect that those of us who took this position have been through it, and are writing from experience. Been there, done that.

I also recall your first post years (?) ago when you were considering bringing your father to live with you. As I recall writing in other posts, your approach was so much more different. You were confident, organized, aware of potential issues, and planning well for a potential life changing situation. That's exactly what it was, but it changed your life for the worse, dragged you down until, as I thought, your analytical and thought processes were trapped by the overwhelming obligation you felt toward your family. It was literally a 180 degree shift in handling the situation with perspective.

Some of us have been there; it's like fighting a whirlpool to get back out and think clearly, and make good decisions. It's like trying to stay dry in a rainfall, like trying to stand during a hurricane while being battered by intense winds.

It's very, very difficult, and causes you to question your own decisions and rationality.

And you're NOT alone.

I see those same issues in this current post. You DON'T have to accommodate your father. He's manipulating you, he's guilting you, and he's thinking only of his own needs.

I know you're a good hearted person and trying to please and take good care of him. That's certainly to your credit, and to your father's discredit that he's manipulating you. But this caregiving arrangement is literally like a heavy weight pulling you down and drowning you.

Believe me, I'm speaking from experience. It took me a while to realize I was being manipulated, another while to figure out how to deal with it, and of course there's yet "another while" to continue analyzing and ensuring that I'm taking the best action under the circumstances. It's easier to treat a broken bone or medical illness b/c they're generally quantifiable.

"The family doesn't talk to me now so I'm not losing much." And there you have it. So, do what you feel best. You're apparently the only responsible one.

But:

Think of it this way: when (and not if) something happens, how are you going to defend yourself to authorities?

If your father falls and injures himself in the woods, you'll either have to call EMS or SAR. What will you say when they ask why you allowed someone with balance instability to be walking around in the woods?

If a weapon is involved, and hopefully no one is injured, what will be your answer to that? Why would you allow someone with balance instability to be carrying a weapon?

What if your father loads the weapon, leaves the safety off and it discharges? What if someone is injured? Do you not think that you could be considered for criminal charges?

Would you want to be put on the spot like by law enforcement or SAR authorities? And believe me, they WILL assign responsibility and liability to you. They're not going to understand that your family is exploiting you, that you're battling to maintain your own self respect and balance. They're going to blame you.

Yes, I'm trying to scare you, and you should be scared, very much so! There comes a time when you have to use the words that must be said: JUST SAY NO.

You're the parent now; he's the child. You'll have to blend the bridge of pretending he's still the man father but is really a man child. And it won't be easy. You'll need your own mental "walking stick.

His and his dog's messes around your house are nothing compared to someone in his state wobbling around a forest with a loaded gun. Even if he doesn't go, you need to address these delusions of still being a hunter.

And honestly, other than playing war games on a computer, I'm not really sure how to do this, unless you establish a new set of rules and firmly and staunchly advise him that you won't be responsible, and if he wants to do this, he needs to find another place to live because you won't be dragged in legally to his activities. Tough, yes.

And he's been used to manipulating and guilting you for years, so that makes it even tougher.

"I've done everything shirt of saying no. If I say no I'm the troubled son".

What?

You say no.

Because you're the responsible one.

Barb, thanks for summarizing it so well!

Okay, I have become a horrible person, and need to ask forgiveness from everyone in advance. I still am just joking, but ashamed to even think this up.
Can't they go hunting together......
father and son....
and like Windy said....
just shoot each other?

Accidentally, I mean.

Someone once asked me what was the cost per pound of the game my DH brought home - I smiled. Because hunting trips are not cheap - gas, food, licenses, ammo, that new piece of clothing or gear. I would think you'll be asked to help foot the bill - this is where you say no.

Getting him a license - you say no. Assisting him in any way with this dangerous escapade - you say no. Stop worrying about whether anyone thinks you're not a good son and say no. I understand that this is a beloved hobby and it's difficult to realize it's no longer possible. But you don't have to enable this.

TG, you are already covering his shortfall every month, right?

Cleaning up his pee puddles that he won't discuss with you.

Cleaning up after his mammoth cooking sprees.

Put up with him telling your wife that she has the do for him.

Can you say "no" to any of it?

What if he told you he wanted you to divorce your wife? Could you say no to that?

GardenArtist, I am having trouble understanding tgengine's legal responsibility for his father. Has his father been declared incompetent? If not, then I don't see how tgengine can be blamed by the authorities if his father obtains his own license and makes his own plans for transportation to the camp.

HAS the father been declared incompetent? Is tgengine his guardian?

There are many examples on this board of elders who really aren't fully competent, but in the eyes of the law they are because it's a very high standard to meet to become declared incompetent. Why is this any different?

I say tgengine should NOT enable his father in any way (do not help him obtain his hunting license, do not drive him to the camp, etc.). Let his father's family/buddies do it. tgengine will not then be responsible in any way for anything that happens.

What is so wrong with this scenario? And, really, tgengine has little to no control over his father, anyway, even though his father is a freeloader in tgengine's own home.

I am a bit confused as to where dad lives? 8 hours away, or near you? I am going to tell a short tale here.. MY FIL is 94, and until a few years ago still wanted to go hunting ( not confused, or yet on O2 and needing his current walker, etc. ) Hubs and his cousin always hunted with FIL, and we know all the local farmers. FIL was unsteady on his feet however. Hubs and cousin would set up a nice flat area, and get FIL there on the 4 wheeler, with his gun and chair. Get him all set up, and go "drive" a deer towards him. He rarely got one,, but he had fun. But one time hubs was going back to pick him up.. no Fil!! Yep, he fell off his chair!! After hubs got over his attack and found him, it was sort of funny.. no injuries!He didn't try to go anywhere, just hidden in the grass. We have way more trouble getting him onto the float boat to fish these days! So if he lives near you this is a day trip option.

I am not from a family of hunters so sorry if this is stupid...but is there a place he could be tested. A cane is useless when on uneven ground. Is he stable enough to hold a gun? Could he lose his balance holding the gun. I agree with everyone that he shouldn't be out hunting. The elderly are hard to reason with. I think you have gone over and above for Dad. I would tell him no. Can u contact those who give the license and tell them to flag Dad? Like I said not sure how it all works.

JoAnn, you raise some very good points.

I don't know if hunters have to be tested when they get a license, but Tgengine could give the DNR or department that issues licenses a heads up before his father applies and they might have an impromptu test that would prevent issuance of a license...some type of cognizance test, or gun safety test. I didn't have to but I took a safety course after learning to shoot, just to be on the safe side.

Someone who holds a rifle would need both hands, especially when he's not shooting from a bench at a rifle range practice area. Only movie stars like the mythical super heroes or Stallone can shoot one handed. So, with one hand on a walker and the other trying to balance a rifle, well, that's a dangerous combination. He could even lose control and shoot himself in the foot.

Yes, he could lose his balance, especially if he's using a rifle with a strong recoil. (Tgengine didn't mention the type of hunting they do, or what type of weapon.)

CTTN, please let me clarify. I was thinking of Tgengine's responsibility if he obtained the license for his father, and accommodated his hunting by taking him to a hunting area, i.e., if he facilitates and enables his father's hunting activities.

I don't know about the incompetency issue or whether Tgengine has legal authority pursuant to a DPOA. I don't recall that he's ever addressed that issue, but I could be wrong.

Why is hunting different from any other activity done by someone who's incompetent? Because it can be life threatening, to both Tgengine's father as well as anyone around, people or animals. If he's hunting, he'd want to aim for a kill on the first shot, or second if necessary. To wound an animal w/o killing is to cause it great suffering.

But he could also wound or kill someone else. That's a lot different from someone who's incompetent soiling his underwear, or getting lost, or not recognizing his family.

Have you ever been to a rifle range? If so, doesn't all that firepower frighten you a bit? It does frighten me. Even though I got used to it, the sound of a weapon being discharged is powerful. And even though in later years there was always a ranger present, I always waited until all the other shooters were retrieving their targets before I went after mine.

I really have difficulty understanding why people aren't more frightened of weapons.

As to the legality of his responsibility, I've found that responsibility is often inferred, not only by neighbors, medical people but also by law enforcement. I've only been asked periodically by medical people to provide documentation of authority, but it's always assumed that I am the responsible one, for everything that's right and everything's wrong.

I've been blamed for a lot of things over which I have no control (no flowers in the front yard!), but that makes no difference. Caregivers are good targets. Did you know that there are invisible targets painted on our backs? People assume we're supposed to be able to work magic and perform miracles, regardless of how old we are and what the circumstances are. And they don't hesitate to blame.

Given the gun culture in the USA I'm rather amused that so many of you are alarmed that a unstable old man should be let loose in the woods with a gun! I imagine the licence TG refers to is a hunting licence, not a gun permit, and that his old man wants him to fill out the form and drop it in the mail, not vouch for his abilities. Even where I live in Canada a 12 year old can get a hunting licence if s/he is accompanied by a responsible adult, I doubt the prohibitions are any more stringent where TG and his father live/hunt.

I've read of game farms where they transport the "hunter" out to blinds to await their trophies in comfort, if dad is willing to travel 8 hours to hunt then perhaps there is an option like this that is available within a similar distance.

TG is stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place - if he totally steps back, he can't stop Dad from driving 8 hours alone to the hunt site. And he's leaving supervision to others, who will be there to hunt and thus, distracted. But if he tries to maintain some control, he'll be driving Dad and supervising. And yes, Cwillie, that's how it works - fill out the form, add a check for fees and mail. Even if TG fills out the form, it's his dad who's applying for the license, which simply allows him to hunt for a particular animal during the designated dates.  There's no testing involved.

I think the "did you get my license" thing is more of The Old Man ordering TG around, which is what he seems to like to do.

If The Old Man can arrange this trip himself, pay for it himself and get himself there and back, then fine, he gets to go.

But if he gets hurt up there, he gets taken to the LOCAL hospital and TG is unavailable to show up. Let sis the RN go get him.

Barb, I think you're right. From past posts, it does seem as though TG's father needs to be a dominant figure, and that he's frequently at odds with TG, whether it's over something like this or his dog's unruly behavior.

Maybe this is more of a man to man issue than a caregiving issue, although the latter complicates the situation.

I seem to recall that TG's dad drove 8 hours last summer to visit sister.

Although The Old Man has some reported deficits (balance, urinary, possible dementia, certainly psychiatric issues), he is not being "cared for" by anyone in the sense of needing help with ADLs. He's just broke and entitled.

So, all TG can do is say "no" to whatever his dad is asking him to do (get me a license--no dad, if you want a hunting license, you'll have to do that (and pay for it) yourself).

If his dad pursues this, so be it.

If it were me, I'd let him go. I probably wouldn't send in
for the liscence, that seems to imply I approve. Let
the other folks contend with him. Hopefully they'll
realize his limitations and keep a close eye on him or
not put live ammo in his gun. Right he drive seems
to be a lot. Can one of the others give him a lift?
Let him go and then you and your wife can have
some nice time together...enjoy it!

Gee, All I had to do was say guns and everyone comes out of the wood work. As far as the gun, that is not an issue with me. (Sendhelp I would appreciate you not using that kind of humor again, pretty low).
My issue is his inability to deal with issues. He has no cognitive issues other than he likes to be waited on. He is ambulatory but needs assistance. As far as his going to camp, I am all for it as long as I dont have to fund it like I ended up doing last year. This year will be a big "NO". I cant afford to fund his cooking for camp (My uncles and friends). My family has always looked out for one another at camp. I doubt he will even go out. As far as walking in the wood, we have safety processes we use to avoid misfires. I can do a lot of prep calls to the family and friends to be assured he is not unsafe. Like I said, I doubt he will even leave camp, pretty cushy camp. We used to take my Great Grandfather out when he was much older, I highly figured they didn't even load his gun at that point, he just wanted to get out. Same with my grandfather. You would have to be a hunter to understand. My big issues is the long drive. There are no issues per-sea other than he is getting older.
Here it is another story, Most likely I will take him out for one day and show him how difficult it will be. If he gets out one day I am sure that will take care of the issue.
It is just the he makes it that I have to do everything for him. I get it, there are things he cant do. It is just difficult with no time off for me from all of this. Maybe if I drag my feet some more it will go away. Only hope. Sure I can say no, it is like saying no to a child but he is not a child and I have no "ammo" to say why.

TG, are you saying that YOU are going on this trip?

I'm confused why you think you have the ability to say yea or nay to the TRIP.

If this is about YOUR money, then you say no. You don't have to fund his luxuries. Let the rest of the family chip in if they want him to hunt with them.

What ammo do you think you need TG? If he is perfectly capable of writing a cheque sending for his own licence then that is reason enough "Gee dad, I think you can do that without my help, I'm too busy". Period!! "Oh TG, can you loan me $500 to cover the cost of the food?" "No dad, you never pay me back and since I have so many people to support now I just can't afford it, I guess you will have to work out sharing the costs with everyone else that is going". If there are others in the family that have demonstrated they can look out for him while he is there then hooray, as others have already said enjoy the time without him!

No, I am not going on the trip, He can go locally which is what he wants. I would have to walk him out there pre-hunt to show him how it will be. its a walk in the woods, maybe I need to do that.
As far as the trip, it is a annual thing I used to do but since he moved in it took all the fun out of going so I dont go. I can work it that my uncles can change the cooking schedule so he doesn't have to buy all the food. they all chip in but somehow he always comes up short on the money. He enjoys the cooking, they enjoy not having to but I dont enjoy the finance. He can cook there but not here, go figure. I will have to start saying no more often, been trying to. One day he is all needy, the next he has things in control (or so he thinks). It is like living with a child but this one can drive and make decisions.....

Here we go again with the "yes...but".
No, TG, no one is ganging up on you or your father because of a gun.
No, TG, you do not "HAVE" to do anything.
Yes, TG, you can do nothing because anything you do enables your father, cheeses you off, and then you come to this forum to complain about why nothing changes.
Learn to say "no" and your problem will be solved. Saying "no" is a skill, which you have yet to master.

Read what NYDaughterInLaw wrote. And then read it again.

Your uncles sound just like your father. Your father cooks all the meals AND they don't even contribute? Freeloading moochers.

After all this time, nothing has appeared to change. You say NO to your father. No help getting the license, no driving him to the camp, NO $. So Daddy gets mad? The best case scenario would be he would get so mad that he would leave and start living with someone else, right? (Maybe he could move in with one of the Uncle Moochers?)

(P.S. Any good updates to the rest of your story? How's D and SIL? Is he still drinking? How is your wife doing?) 

TG, no, this isn't about guns.

Your question asks " how do I tell him no?"

That is at the core of all of your experience with your dad, how to say " no". You have difficulty with saying no to other folks too, but let's start with dad.

What happens when you deny your father something? Does he get angry? Sad? Whiny? Tell tales to others to get back at you?

How did your mom say no to him? What was their interaction like?

Ponder those questions a bit, you may find some answers to your dilemna.

Hi there TG!

"Sure I can say no, it is like saying no to a child but he is not a child and I have no "ammo" to say why."

Sure you do. Ask his doctor if your father is fit enough for this hunting trip.

Just ignoring dad for a while so to speak. He will not change. So I have to learn to adapt. After 3 years I am tired. As far as SIL and daughter, they are still here. Not allowed to ask about the house situation. Not allowed to ask about pretty much anything but yet everyone continues to live here scott free.
So I just continue doing what I need to keep my place going without any help from anyone (except my wonderful wife).
As far as dad, I will see when the time comes. He will ask for money and I am prepared to say no, he will have to figure out a different solution.
Right now working on me. Did a side job yesterday to get some extra cash (really didn't need it but always need some extra). Went back to the gym to get me in better shape (week 2, 5 days a week). Feel so much better. Gets me out of the house.
I have been painting outside, dad some to me and asks if I was done..... lets see 3/4s of it plainly can see is not done. He said he would love to help but he can't climb a ladder. Now he can't climb a ladder? For 3 years he has been telling me he can (I wont let him). Plus I was on the floor painting...... I had to laugh. He is only handicapped when it is convenient......
As far as SIL, he keeps the drinking hidden. Still can tell. I gave up as long as it is not in front of me or he gets out of line. I feel bad for my daughter, she is wasting her time with this guy. Going no where. Soon it will be too late for her when she wakes up. There is on so much we can tell and show her.
I wish I had a crystal ball before I got myself into all of this...... I know it wont get better so I have to look at this as my new normal. Saying no more often, cooking for 3 more often.

"He will not change. So I have to learn to adapt. "

Of course he won't change. Why should he when you're willing to compensate for him?

"Not allowed to ask about pretty much anything but yet everyone continues to live here scott free."

Honestly, I can't even think of anything to write in response to this. It's such an admission of subordination, of not even trying to stand up for your rights, and of just accepting that you're going to be a doormat for freeloading relatives.

"I know it wont get better so I have to look at this as my new normal."

TG, have you ever really, seriously, considered getting psychological help to establish boundaries and regain your sense of self respect? Or are you content to be a doormat for your family? Or is it that you just like to come here and get sympathy?

When you first posted some years ago, I never would have thought I would reach these conclusions, and I don't write them to be nasty. But you've come here repeatedly and asked for help, been told to stand up for yourself, set boundaries, get help, yet nothing seems to change. Months pass by, you're back again with the same complaints.

If you're willing to tolerate a subordinate position in your own household, accept that, but recognize that the situation isn't going to change if you're not willing to. And be honest that you want sympathy for a situation to which you've contributed by refusing to address it head on.

Oh, TG, your crystal ball was working just fine. It's the reality that is heavier going that anyone can appreciate until they're in the middle of it.

Harden your nose. Dad wants to go hunting, Dad can take himself to the woods for a recce, can sort out his own licence, can rely on his buddies for any assistance he needs. And if he can't do those things, then ipso facto he can't handle the trip, because preparing for it is part of doing it.

The only bit you have to work on is saying 'not my problem' if the trip goes t*ts up. And, to look on the bright side, maybe it won't, and he'll have a nice time, and you'll get a break. And then again maybe his friends won't be so easily conned next year, on account of they'll have learned something.