Dealing with an executor that has dementia? Has anyone experienced this?

How is this for a situation.

Mum was POA for a husband and wife who were living in two different facilities 30 minutes apart. The wife died, her husband, for whom Mum has POA is named executor. Their two kids are, jointly back up executors, one lives in the UK, the other 1000km away.

The husband does not have dementia, but is obstinate and does not have the capacity to deal with the funeral home, paper work etc. Mum wen to talk to the lawyer who prepared the Will and the POA documents to find out what she could or could not do in this situation.

What Mum does is all the leg work. She gets all the documents that need to be signed and takes them to the husband, she made all the arrangements as needed on behalf of the husband, but as her POA authorization does not extend to her acting as Executor in his place, she has to go through him for everything. But some of the paperwork she can do as POA. Because she is his POA. POA for the wife ended at her death.

Mum records all the time she spends, mileage, shipping costs and more than that is charged to the estate.

It is

A friend of mine told me that after his mom passed (she was single) that it took him 4 years to finish executing what was required (he also was working full time). It is a lot of work for the most capable of people. But, it may help your mental and emotional state to invest in a 1-hr consult with an elder law attorney to see IF anything can and should be done to light a fire under the current executor. Maybe if this person understands that they are now under the microscope and the law may be involved, they'll ramp up their game. I wish you a speedy outcome!

I would go to Probate and tell them that you feel the Executor is not competent in carrying out his duties. I wonder if he has even filed the Will? Just because someone has assigned someone to be Executor in their Will, I don't think Probate has to except that. An assigned Executor can turn his responsibility over to a lawyer.

Thanks, Geaton & JoAnn. Geaton, you hit the nail on the head... we are hoping it will light a fire under his butt. I have a feeling we will have to evict him from the house. Good times.

I think in writing this I may be looking more for other’s stories. My DH and I have been trustees/executors on more than our fair share of estates, so we know the legal ins and outs and have an excellent estate attorney. I am meeting with him this week to get an idea of our options and seeing how far we want to go to get that fire lit.

The estate also has an attorney who has kept me in the loop since the beginning because their office has had a hard time getting any action out of him. That attorney and ours will sort it out on a legal level.

As far as time goes, I hear you, JoAnn on the time it takes. We have done this numerous times. My Dh’s parents’ was FAR more complicated and took less time. This estate is not large and if it weren’t for one of the executors dragging his feet, it would have been completed within a year... easily. This is one of those people who is constantly “SO busy” but never actually does anything. Conspiracy theorist, hoarder, hater of females and anyone who isn’t from the mother-land. Sits around on short wave radio ALL DAY and then says how much he has to do. Not ONE thing in the house has been gone through, although he has SO much stress from all of the work he does. But, he is disabled and can’t move and has caregivers come in to cook for him. But, he is so mad that no ones helps him. But, he is the master of all things. So many contradictions.

Not one closet, not one drawer. He has been living in this house rent-free, doing NOTHING. My gfather’s place is deteriorating into a wreck. The toilets have literally not been cleaned since my mother passed away in 2018... vomit. He thinks I should come over and do it... lol, think again, buddy.

I really regret not kicking him in the -ss earlier on in this process. He has trained others in the family to fear his wrath, which doesn’t make this easier.

Basically, we have to encourage him to “resign”. The other executor also sees the futility of the situation and is ready to get some help, so that is a definite step in the right direction.

The very sad thing is that he is alone. No family, no friends. He is a complete pill. But, he wants the niece (me) to take care of him and do his bidding while he sits on a throne and gives (very questionable) instructions and sticking his nose into my brother’s care and pot-stirring with other family members. I have no problems handling it. I just stay away from him. He may talk about me to others, but he will NEVER do so to my face. He knows better.

I know I sound terrible. I am just done with my family. I am SO tired of family care needs. I know that many of you can relate. I know what I have to do. I guess advice isn’t so much what I am here for so much as solidarity, lol.

Sometimes, it is just nice to hear the experience of others and how they may have handled a situation:) It helps to just have vomited this stuff up so I can declutter my head. And to know that I am not the only one whose family has a disproportionately high number of nutters, lol.

Disgusted,

This is so true and brought a much needed smile to my face tonight...

”just takes more effort and time than birthing an elephant to get him to do anything!”

I have an appt with my own estate attorney next week and got in touch with my grandfather’s estate attorney today, who thought uncle had closed everything out by now.

So, I am moving this along.

jacobson, so frustrating. Hopefully, now that some months have passed, your sister will get things moving.

We have had more drama from uncle even since I posted last. But, I spent a great deal of time separating out his bullying of other uncle and his very disturbing ways, etc. from the legal issues at hand. To focus on the goal, I basically need to have my atty roll out. So, that is what is happening.

The interpersonal stuff throughout this scenario is the nightmare. It makes the legal stuff pale in comparison.

One thing to clarify. This person did not live in the house previously. My mother was my grandfather’s caregiver. This person would “visit” for weeks on occasion, expecting my mother to cook and clean for him and say he was “helping” with elder care.

He has at least one other residence. So, this situation isn’t a caregiver who use the house as a primary residence before the death.

dp

If it has been two years the heirs WILL have a court case, but would need some evidence. If this person is undiagnosed, then it would be difficult to accuse without evidence. The amount of time is good evidence. If notification of beneficiaries wasn't done, that is good evidence.
In short they would need that good Estate Attorney you have. For myself, the trinkets and memory things are not worth the bicker; we will all soon enough be dead and no one will want them. They have only nuisance value to me, but I cannot say I have ever put much sentiment in objects.
If there is only a rickety falling down house it would not be worth it.While the Estate can recover fees IF ONE DOES win in court, if there is not a lot at issue in this estate the heirs would have little net gain for their trouble.
I am more a walk away girl unless there are very large issues.

Wow--this all makes me really glad my OB passed away before he could have stepped in to ruin mother and dad's estate. He didn't have dementia, but rather a BPD and was really impossible to work with.

He was not POA or executor or ANYTHING--due to previous misdeeds and actual theft from mother and dad---but I can see how easily he would have slid into that place and just lived in their home and kept on supporting himself by stealing and pawning their stuff.

My DH and I could not agree on a POA and executor. Our son is an attorney, but has lived far away for the last 18 years and not really involved in our family at all. DH felt that as the only son he should be in charge. I refused to sign any documents with his name as being 'in charge' of ANYTHING. I'm not mad at him, but he'd blow into town and try to execute our whole estate in 2 days and return home to never be seen again.

I wanted our oldest daughter to run things. With the middle daughter as 'co'. They are both bright, intelligent, honest women and I expect they will do a stellar job and when DH FINALLY said "Fine, whatever you want', we were at the attorney's within a week.

He's too lazy to change anything and I basically drew up the will and the attorney did all the legalese.

When I read about families like yours, I want to cringe. It's hard enough to deal with the probate and execution of a will without the drama of a nutjob in the middle messing things up.

As it was--when my grandma passed, my OB moved right into her condo and expected it as 'his' b/c he was the oldest great grandchild. Well, he wasn't, and spent only a month there, busily unpacking all the stuff we'd separated and packed and pawning anything of value. Mom made ME kick him out.

Unbelievably, in that month he did more damage to this place that gma's previous 30 years in it. Incomprehensible to us, but that's how he was.

Just another cautionary tale about whom you choose to carry out your final wishes!

Thanks, AlvaDeer.

I hear you on the walk away. I want nothing in the house. Honestly, problem trustee thinks there is a gold mine in there, which is so far from reality. That isn’t unusual in these situations. But, there is almost nothing of any value in that house, unless the mice crap gold, lol. That is why we were considering a sale “as is” two years ago. The buyer would haul it all away for us.

It is now worse. No a/c, no maintenance done at all. Toilets have probably a year of filth on them, no exaggeration.

I am sure there may be some minor nostalgic things that might be nice, but NOTHING there is worth the stress of dealing with him.

Unfortunately, I can’t do that with the actual house or the other account he kept from other trustee. I would be much more inclined to that if I were not

1) responsible for my brother’s care... his is disabled with MS, I took over his care after my mother passed. I manage a special needs trust for him that cropped out of my grandfather’s trust. So I have a fiduciary duty here to him as well.

2) going to have to deal with this anyway. Our family is tiny. Even if we decided to just wait until first brother died (which could be 25 years from now as we all know, lol), he is basically going to drain what is left of the estate for all benes. And we will have to clean up his hoard and sell the house then anyway.

Non-action right now (and as has been evident for the past couple of years) will just defer the work, increase it, and cause heaps of stress in the meantime.

As much as I have no doubt there are major cognitive issues going on, no one has access to uncle’s drs, etc. No one is interested in having him declared or anything. He just needs to do his job or resign his position. Basically, make sure he can do no harm. One minute, he is too “disabled” (age and back issues, but not disabled) to do anything... like send a form to the accountant or read correspondence from the attorney). But, he will not “allow” other trustee (his brother) to make anything happen without “his permission”.

None of the work involved is very onerous, believe me. I have done this myself. My grandfather made things as easy as possible. And the estate pays for attorney, accountant and financial advisor. He doesn’t have to do much.

Even if it *was* too difficult, the simple solution is he resigns. He gets pretty vicious to younger trustee if that is even hinted at.

As disgusted mentioned below, that is the goal right now. That is what I am hoping a push from my attorney will bring about. I really don’t want to go to court over this. We just want to be done and move on.

Years of situations like this with multiple people have just drained me, my DH, and younger trustee’s family. There comes a point when it just needs to be done. And I can’t walk away because of my trustee duties for my own brother.

The trust allows either trustee to act. They both know this, although older keeps saying it isn’t so. But, the years of family dynamic at play here are interfering. Second brother trustee is pushing back a bit, but dreads first brother trustee’s displeasure. I have no such qualms:)

First brother’s cognitive situation makes it almost impossible to have a reasonable conversation with him. He is not a good person. I don’t say that to be callous. I have actually gotten along with him well enough because I don’t engage with him and didn’t see him much growing up. Like my YB, he is MUCH better with people he is not familiar with. I also have never had any reason to full on challenge him, other than taking opposite sides on his white supreme day/conspiracy/patriarchy stuff (not political Reps vs Dems). He doesn’t even fully fit into one of those categories. His beliefs are toxic and, frankly, nuts.

He lacks logic in ways I can’t really convey in the word count available to me here. But, he was the oldest boy in a heavily old country family, so...

Going forward,
problem trustee, PT
younger trustee, T2
my sibling, YB

Just to be clear, I do not want to become a trustee/executor. I am trying to help my other uncle, T2, get the job done. He asked me to step in because I have a great deal of financial/law/estate experience and, more importantly, I have no fear of PT’s wrath, lol. He understands his issues with PT, and I am proud of him for trying to set boundaries, etc.

Actually, Mid, from what I know from my mother and a few cousins, I think your OB and PT have very similar personalities. Mental illness coupled with age/drinking/cognitive decline is no walk in the park.

I am glad, with all you have been through, you didn’t have to deal with that.

499, so as probate is open, I’d suggest that you ask the judges office to schedule an “in chambers meeting” & in person if at all possible. You as a heir have “standing” in what happens as with the disposition of the assets of the estate, so you can request this. & in turn if your assets affect the funding of the SNT for your brother with MS, that $ affects him as a vulnerable adult, so he too might also have standing. In chambers is more casual meeting usually with the in-house staff atty for the judges court. The judge ime won’t sit in on this.... might say hello but not sit in. In chambers is a way to discuss something that is stalling settling probate that poses problems for heirs. Like if Executor is MIA for response to letters from heirs, or used in atty goes MIA. Bigger probate courts have full time staff attys; smaller ones maybe not but there will some way to do an in chambers.
BUT
before this, you discuss with your own estate atty the situation and get them to find you a probate atty that does litigation. Most probate guys do not do litigation. It’s specialized work and those that do tend to maybe share a practice or share staff with litigation oriented divorce atty as they both use forensic accountants in their discovery. The forensics will be able to do a deep dive and find how Senor Squalid Potty has channeled estate $ to his own self dealing, which is a big no-no. Finding stuff like this gets him removed as executor.

Squalid has his own home as well, right? I’ll bet you a case of Prosecco that he’s funding his nasty house from the probate estate. The litigation atty will find it and Squalid will get removed as Executor. If litigation guy is a real pit bull, might file a civil against Squalid for mishandled funds and Squalid has to repay (so he sells his house). Litigation guys go for the kill, it’s why you hire them. Charming killers tho’.

For personal dramarama experience, it was for my first time being executor, was estate for an “Aunt”, multiple marriages, no kids, property across state lines. Everyone assumed loads of $$$ but was illusion. Came as a total surprise to me to be named. She had a nephew that assumed it was to be him. Learned a lot, spent quite a bit of time sitting on bad benches in different courthouses hearing incredibly sad stories & gave me an appreciation of how heavy emotional load on probate judges & staff. Biggest takeaways were to me that you have to keep meticulous records; send everything certified mail with the returned receipt card; be patient as things just can move glacially. And biggest (& scariest) was that it’s pretty easy to have the illusion of having $ as most folks don’t understand how debt works.

So the first question to ask is has ANYTHING been submitted to probate? If not, NO ONE is executor of the will/estate. Even if people are named in the will, until the court reviews the will, they won't be appointed, therefore they have NO power to do anything.

EDIT: I was thinking (ow) about you said 2 years this has been pending. Did a lookup and found this:
"Most states impose a deadline of ten to 90 days after the death, or after you receive notice of the death. The filing of the will starts the probate process."
(source www.alllaw.com)
Clicking on the link, there was more:
"If you don’t file the will, it’s possible that you could face a lawsuit from anyone who suffers losses as a result of your failure to promptly turn the will over to the court. For example, a creditor or someone who is supposed to inherit under the will could be harmed if it’s not filed until the deceased person’s property has already been distributed."

So, if your brother has need, he IS being harmed!

I would be concerned that this clown is draining everything. and hasn't filed anything Work with the other uncle, gently pushing him, suggest using your or any attorney, to do what needs to be done: get uncle #1 bounced. I wouldn't worry about getting any Dx for cognitive issues - he has NOT performed the duties that he was named to do - that should be sufficient argument for uncle #2 to get himself appointed and if the other has been appointed, get him removed by the court.

Even if uncle #2 is reluctant, push him as much as you can to get this ball rolling. The longer it waits, the more problems will occur, house deteriorates more, draining any trust funds or other assets, etc.

Currently our estate isn't even set up yet. I filed online over a month ago, sent in the will and DC, had to get an atty statement (will was done in next state, not the one mom was living in when she passed) and waited... Then came the request for my YB to decline, as we were both named, not co or alternate, just named. Thankfully he signed off. This isn't the "bulk" of mom's legacy - that's in the trust... but finally the "mating ritual" was over for that (another dumb move, name all 3 as trustees!) Just waiting for the largest portion to be moved to our individual accounts. Still more work to get taxes done for 2020 and 2021, but the worst of that is almost over... The estate isn't that big, but needs to be done... I think I mentioned somewhere, perhaps not in this thread - the EC atty who set everything up, first for dad and mom, then for mom, told me to just deposit the checks and don't tell the bank she has passed!!! Ummmm, NO. THAT'S not legal!

He's on my nasty letter list, for after everything is done and the ink is dry. The good news is the list isn't very long...

Have you talked with executor lately and mentioned - we need to get this estate finished up. Blame it on other health problems and people within the family aging as the need to get it resolve. The sticky issue here is the executor living in the house? Where is that person going to go? Would seem that issue alone has created the delay in completing the process. Why would I be in a hurry to sell a house I live in and have money, that doesn't belong to me, to keep the house going??

Was there a timeframe in the will? Or is there a timeframe in your state? In Texas it is 3 years from time it is begun.

If you can't get any where with this person, it's time to get an atty involved. You might ask your atty if you can take a copy yourself to get the ball rolling, set court date where executor will need to appear. Your atty can probably help you with a little advice since a will exists and just needs a little shove in the right direction.

I hate to say it, but talk to a lawyer. An executor can be liable for wasting an estate.

If he has been living for 2 years in the home that is supposed to be sold and divvied up among the beneficiaries, he is not going to suddenly get a jolt of ethics and reasoning.  You're going to have to get your "terrific estate attorney" to give him a wakeup call and or letter.

Appt is set with attorney for early next week.

Probate isn’t an issue here, but I know those posts will be very helpful to others reading this thread. I hope things get ironed out for disgustedtoo... it sounds like you are swimming in this stuff too, lol.

my2cents, I am not sure if I mentioned earlier, but PT (problem trustee) moved in to the house *after* my grandfather passed. He kind of ended up staying to “take care of things” but never actually did anything. Just started living there. He has TWO other places to stay. He needs to go back to his own home... this guy isn’t homeless and wasn’t a caregiver living with his elder parent.

He really need AL, but that isn’t something I can force. Another family member has offered to help with getting him to ALs to visit. Which sounds like a smaller job than it is, lol.

jamesj, that is exactly the plan.

The family dynamics at play will be the most challenging piece of this. They make the legal stuff seem like a walk in the park, as the additional posts I added indicate. It will be interesting to see how people have handled communication and relationship issues in similar situations. And whether they have preserved relationships.

Update: Without adding detail right now, this is now in the attorney’s hands. A letter was sent from the atty office last month demanding action. NOTHING has been done. It is truly bizarre. So, the Petition to remove as trustee is in the hands of the court. I’ll try to shoot out another update... I can’t believe I posted this in mid-Feb. The last almost 2 months have been exhausting with no forward movement at all.

Yippee. Because the last 10 years haven’t been enough of a PITA, lol.

Another update for anyone who wants to know what legal action to remove a nefarious trustee looks like in real life…

After said trustee hid behind curtains to avoid service by the court. After finding out said trustee basically embezzled about $16k and got the benefit of around $30k in not paying the estate rent on a house he is squatting in. After hearing the behind my back names, etc. he has called me to family members (who luckily have known him longer than I, lol, and are having none of it). After finally getting him to resign as trustee mere days before the court date for him to face fiduciary breach charges. After paying close to $7k so we can actually finish this job that HE was supposed to do and close what is a simple, less than a year estate. After waiting a couple of months for the third party trustee to be assigned (I declined to act as trustee at the front end because I thought a neutral, third party was a better idea and frankly, because I am tired of all of this), they are still dinking around about signing on. In part, because they have to deal with nefarious squatter.

After all of these things, guess what? It is looking more and more like I am going to have to accept as trustee if anything is going to get done in this lifetime. The one thing I didn’t want. My family is just the gift that keeps on giving.

The only thing that makes this semi-ok is that at least it is me and not my overworked, exhausted, taken for granted mom that has to do this. I have no problem going toe to toe with this family member. He made her life so miserable, and I lost her so early from all of the stress.

Sorry if I sound bitter, but today just knocked the wind out of my sails.

Another positive, at least he knows I am not bluffing about taking him to court;)

Thanks so much for the update. We all learn from each other.

Thanks, Geaton and JoAnn. It has been a saga, that is for sure, lol.

I have had to do quite a bit of internal work. It’s so important to keep the “goal” in mind. Because sometimes people are just crazy🤣

I woke up feeling like I had a cloud over my head because of this. But, I spent some time this morning regrouping and streamlining how I want to handle things going forward. Refocusing was good. At least now, I will be able to make like a steamroller and get the work done:)

Update time again:)
After almost a year of legal action, squatter uncle has finally left the building.

Since my last update, he has tried to play to the court that he is “homeless”. (Remember this, it will come up again later.) Despite the fact that he still had the place he lived before moving into my grandfather’s home after my grandfather died. Sheesh.

So, no third party would take the estate because 1) squatter uncle was in the house, wouldn’t leave and paid no rent and 2) there is no liquid cash left because squatter uncle spent all of the money in the trust checking account on his own living expenses.

I was FINALLY appointed trustee by the court late last year. I was not in a good place that day because I did NOT want this. My life is full and happy, but busy. This is just one big pile of stuff to do, lol.

But, since it is what it is, I decided to basically bulldoze squatter uncle out. I went in, told him he was moving by a certain date or I would evict him. (The eviction would have taken longer, but luckily he didn’t seem to realize that.) My DH and I have spent about half the days in the last month clearing out a triple layer hoarder house. Multiple 40 yard dumpsters. All while squatter uncle was being the biggest jerk known to man as we were working around him.

This guy couldn’t be happy if God himself came down and bestowed him with unending money, good looks, etc. He has bullied many people in the family forever. I am happy to say he finally hit a wall he couldn’t move with his anger. I told him that his anger means nothing to me and that he can be as angry as he wants, but the house is getting cleared and he is moving.

I did end up arranging movers because I do know that cognitive aging stuff makes planning almost impossible. I was kind enough, but very firm. I told him I would not discuss family relationships or the legal situation at all.

I am happy to say, he is finally out. No explosion beforehand, which surprised me. But, it happened shortly after the move in a phone call. I don’t think he will be calling me again, lol. He tried every angle he could think of to engage me in his nonsense. Always a victim.

So, the homeless thing…

The facility he moved into is a freaking palace. Seriously, the AL apartment is beautiful, the chef they have is amazing. The location is excellent. Every service available. Homeless. To quote Princess Bride, “I do not think that word means what you think it means.”

He had an apt in the same place lined up way back in OCTOBER and I found out from the consultant that he TURNED IT DOWN!!! This is while he is having his atty tell mine that he can’t find anything. If he hadn’t moved this time, they would have taken him off of the list.

Boundaries are a beautiful thing. I just wish others would have figured that out sooner. His bullying ways created habit pathways that have followed the siblings into their late 60s/early 70s.

The good news is we have the house almost cleaned out and should be listed soon. I still have so much to do, but having that negative black hole of a person out of the house makes the work much more pleasant, lol.

We are still working through the courts on the money he stole from the estate. He feels very entitled to every penny.

Sometimes, there are no words.

Oh and by the way, in the entire year that has passed since I initiated legal action, NOT ONE THING was done in the house. Actually in the three years since my grandfather passed, he did exactly nothing to clean out the house, while he lived there in the house. Seriously, not one drawer cleaned out. Not one closet. He just layered his hoard right on top. Brought it all in. But, you know, he moved in “to help the estate.” Not sure who he was helping since it was his responsibility as trustee.

And another update:)

Finished the big clean out, had cleaners come in because uncle left everything, especially bathrooms (blech) disgusting. Listed the house last week. Almost 100 showings over weekend!! And almost 20 offers all above asking! Hopefully, that means we will have a closing date shortly.

Still litigating for the embezzlement from the estate.

Still getting nasty voicemails trying to engage.

But, guys, the house is EMPTY! I honestly wondered if this day would ever come.

I am not sure if anyone is following this but I keep updating because I know we get people on here who squat in a parent’s house. (I am not talking about the caregivers who did the backbreaking work for years and need some extra time to make arrangements.)

So, it can be done. However, the $ and time involved is a heavy load.

Hopefloats, thanks for updating us on all this. What a saga! So glad it sold above asking. Is it worth litigating against the "squatter" when he likely has no money to pay and it eats into any money with lawyer fees??

I had a few more snotty, demanding messages again last night. From now on, all communication with me will go through the lawyers. I think he will be less inclined to voice ridiculous demands if he has to pay to voice them to someone else:)