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The more I've been thinking, I'm starting to convince myself that my brother intentionally overdosed my grandma so let me lay out my theory
In mid October, my sister in law told my grandma that she thinks my job in NY will be ending soon and I'll be back to take her home. My mom and brother heard this. Around Halloween, she called me for 3 days straight to guilt me into paying off the home equity loan under the pretense that it's for my own benefit since when I'd get the house, it'd be due anyway so I could save interest. Each time, I said no and by the third day she seemed more panicky asking me like I had to say yes (bc the junkies she gave the home to didn't want to pay it) My theory is that they illegally used their invalid POA (she wasn't incompetent and the APS worker previously told them those papers mean nothing until she is) to get her in hospice bc they feared I was coming soon and once she went home their game would unravel. No one was informed that she was on hospice despite having 3 other grandsons (and their families) living within 5 miles. There was also no remarkable health decline nor did she ever express that she was ready to go. So why go on hospice right before the holidays and why is it a secret? The first week of November, my mom leaves for Florida and planned to stay until after New Years. Who leaves their mother in their home on hospice to go on a 2 month vacation? My grandma died overnight 11/28-29 but she needed restroom assistance and one of the main complaints they had was that she would wake them up a lot to pee but now she doesn't for 11 hours? I suspect that my brother may have overdosed her bc my physician uncle was coming to visit from St. Louis and he would have noticed her Meds were gone and find out about hospice. Also, for the last month she would always seem to be talking in code or like my brother was listening.
I feel like I should report this to the police bc they never came to the home after death, just hospice. I thought maybe they could get toxicology before she's buried. But I don't even know if it sounds too far fetched and they will ignore it. There's just too many strange things to dismiss and when linked, imo form a story that deserves to be looked into. On the "bright" side, the police know my brother is a druggie and violent so it's not like I'm accusing an upstanding citizen but I would hate to be wrong and inflict pain on him. However, my gut is pinging and if I'm going to present my suspicions, it's tomorrow or never. What would you do if you're only using the evidence/presumptions I stated. And please disregard telling me that she was 96 and in poor health. I totally agree and I know this day was nearing one way or another but I also think it's a good way to get away with something like this bc it's not unexpected.
I need advice

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Hannah, didn't you say that the will was changed months ago? So was granny begging you to pay the HELOC after she'd already ledt the house to your brother?

Is your brother capable of murder?

If you think he is, I'd contact the DAs office. One side benefit, IF your brother gets wind of the fact that the DA os going to take the body back to morgue for a post mortem toxicology screen, he'll have her buried so fast it'll make your head spin

My advice? If you want to stay sane? You come from a family of grifters. Turn your back and walk away. BE the snobby relative they all talk about. Don't look back and cut your losses.
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You don't just get people into hospice to kill them....a medical evaluation is done to determine if the person is nearing death and then provide appropriate care for the patient. I think you are over thinking this. It's very unlikely that your actions to autopsy someone who died on hospice because you have some suspicions will have a positive outcome on any front.
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Well yes, I'm sure she qualifies for hospice bc of the 6 month thing but my point is that there was no reason to put her on hospice and to be secret. You don't just put them on hospice all of a sudden. And actually, I already called the detective at the police dept and he agrees that it's worth looking into which he's doing right now.
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Regardless of what you suspect, you have to have proof, so focus on how to get that to substantiate your concerns.
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hannahhonee73, when it comes to elders, their health can change overnight.

That happened with my Dad, he was sent to the hospital found to have had aspiration pneumonia, he was placed on Hospice the very same day and was on Hospice only a week. This was all so sudden, he was sitting in his recliner, joking with the Assisted Living staff, and the next morning he had passed.

As for your Mom, Hannah, maybe she was under the impression that her Mom still had plenty of time, so she went on his vacation. She might not have understood how grave this situation was or was in denial.

Ask Hospice how much morphine do they leave at a patients home for a relative to give to the patient? Normally morphine is 5 to 15 mg per dosage. It would take 200mg or more to force someone to pass.

Go with your gut feeling on this case. It could be a lot of coincidentals or something quite wrong. Do what you need to do to get closer.
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First, please accept my condolences on your loss of your grandmother; I'm very sorry and it must be especially sad to be having the fears and suspicions you are having. Second, MY "gut" reaction is for YOU to trust your gut. So, verify or you will always fret about this. Apparently you've had other posts but I haven't read them and I don't think I'm clear enough on what happened to give the best advice -- for example, who is the "she" in "she called me" to pay off the loan...your grandmother or your sister-in-law? Who benefits from your grandmother's death and in what way? Does your brother get the house? If so, why would anyone think YOU would be interested in paying off the home equity loan??? Also, POA would not necessarily have been needed to get Grandma into hospice -- she might have been able to make those arrangements herself; ask hospice. In fact, ask hospice everything and, hopefully, they can tell you without violating HIPPA or some other law. Most hospice organizations are wonderful, but there are some that are not. However, I have a hard time believing that any hospice caregiver could not have told the difference between an overdose and the natural death that was evidently expected. So, hopefully, your suspicions are unfounded but I think you will grieve more easily if you get some more information. And then, with BarbBrooklyn I would encourage you to run, not walk, away from these family members and focus on the people who you respect and who bring happiness to your life. Blessings, Lolli
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Let me answer the few questions that seemed unclear
1- I posted on another thread that I was always supposed to inherit the house but after an APS visit the fallout led to her giving it to the brother who the allegations were against and who I'm suspicious of. This was done in secret and I was never led to believe anything had changed and continued to contribute money towards things for the home and paid property taxes
2-,she had a heloc and I always understood that if she was unable to pay off before death that I would have to inherit the debt since it was attached to the house. That's why I was getting annoyed at her badgering me for 3 days straight bc my feeling was that I'd cross the bridge when it came. The interest rate is low enough that letting it play out wasn't going to cost me much more than paying it now. But she was obviously trying to get it cleared bc they were pressuring her so they wouldn't have to be stuck
3- you don't put people on hospice in secret and not tell anyone. That is bizarre My grandma has 3 other kids, numerous grandkids, etc who she was close to and none of them had a contentious relationship with my mom. So there's no reason to be secretive.
4- my gma had chf and took numerous pills. No one can think she'd have a lot of time once all those Meds are stopped. My mom wasn't going on a week vacation, she was leaving for months.
5- all the bank accounts were emptied after he notified family of death but he waited hours to call hospice so the death time was pushed back to protect the electronic transfers.
Anyway, the detective is looking into right now bc the APS worker just called me bc he contacted her about her knowledge and verified that my gma was competent. She said that he's now going to contact hospice to find out when she was placed and who signed her up. If she signed then it's over but if my mom signed by using the POA after she was informed that she had no reason or right to exercise that then it's going to go to the next stage.
I understand that I have no evidence but that's why the detective is researching bc the key to determining whether I'm just putting a bunch of strange things into a story is him finding out what happened with the hospice. The APS worker said that I'm doing the right thing bc my gma was vulnerable and her denying the truth let them use her. She also said that elderly people are much more susceptible to things like this bc their deaths aren't a surprise and things aren't always looked at the right way. So yeah, between her and the detective's response, I'm definitely doing the right thing by voicing my suspicions. I knew it.
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1. Hospice is not a "secret" process. It takes an MD to prove the patient is terminal. Hospice nurses monitor the patient. Hospice nurses come immediately when called and they can tell if it has been several hours since death.
2. Never believe an old person who says they are giving you the house. Old people tell you the lies you want to hear. Grandma was attempting to buy your affection. She succeeded.
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Hannah, you have probably already thought of this but while you are waiting to talk to them, it might be helpful to try to jot down a timeline of when you heard from them and your grandma, and when you know things (like transfers) happened. Try to differentiate color or notations what events you know to have happened and those that were told to you by the family in IN.

I hope that you guys are wrong and that this was a natural event but it is really bizarre that your mom would leave her dying mom with a drug addict to care for her, especially at this time. The whole story is disturbing. I think it is much better to address any doubts now than wonder for the rest of your life whether something unnatural might have happened. And I am glad you are in another state from them. So sorry -- this situation must be draining.
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You've voiced your suspicions and it is being officially investigated. Please let us know the outcome.
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Pam, I think she just meant that her primary caregivers (mom and brother who are addicted) did not let the rest of the family know grandma had been put on hospice.
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Hannah by all means go ahead with your investigation. I think basically your brother stole Gma's money. Was he or your mother supposed to inherit it?
I am glad they failed to get money out of you to pay of the loan which is my view of what happened.
Is your mother afraid of your brother? If so so she is the vulnerable elder depending on her age and given Gma's age and the fact you have retired she probably is older and dependent in someway on your brother.
Not telling anyone about the hospice admission does sometimes happen because they don't want to alarm the patient so they just tell them visiting nurses will be coming.
A hospice death usually means a the medical examiner does not need to e involved because the hospice nurse confirms the death and notifies the funeral home.
There is no time frame for calling hospice to notify a death and it is often delayed to allow out of twon relatives to arrive and see the patient at home rather than at the funeral home. The time of death is also often delayed just for the purpose it was in this case to allow funds to be withdrawn before the bank freezes the accounts and no one can touch the money. In this case it possibly was for illegal reasons as you say brother is a druggy.
Did brother kill Gma no way of knowing without being there. Hospice typically does not provide huge amounts of medications and when someone dies they account for everything so if they had left for example a new bottle of 20 mls of liquid morpine the day before they would be suspicious if the bottle was empty.
By all means go ahead and get the toxicology done but don't be surprised if it comes back within normal limits.. If he did kill her he most likely did it by holding a pillow over her face or a plastic bag. She was old frail and dying, It would be very easy to do. Maybe it was close to her time and she went naturally but he took advantage and pocketed the money.
My major concern at this point is the welfare of your mother. She is probably going to be destitute. Let us know what happens.
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Pam, I understand that hospice isn't a secret thing. I know all about hospice. I'm not a moron. I'm aware that you don't order hospice like a pizza. I'm also well aware that she was eligible for hospice probably for 8 years due to chf. My point isn't that, my point is that no one else was informed and as of now we're not sure if she signed the papers herself or if the POA papers were presented and my mom illegally used them to sign her on. Jeez, I don't understand how you think I don't understand how things work. I'm a caretaker of a hospice patient and one of the first things the person asked her POA was if she had friends and family that they should be informed in case they want to come. It's not normal. And like lindy says, you go to Florida and leave her alone in the house with even more narcotics? He wouldn't answer the door for my other brothers and 3x in the past month the nurses had to call police bc he wasn't answering the door for them. And FYI, the previous will was drafted in 1999 so it wasn't like I had a reason to believe that it was an empty promise. Anyway, that's irrelevant to me now.
I'm not sure if he sped up her death bc my uncle was coming and he knew that he couldn't hide from him or if stopped Meds just caught up that day but either way, all of my siblings feel like something is fishy.
I'll keep you informed but not to sound rude, I don't want to hear that I'm in denial that she was dying or I'm stupid about hospice or I'm bitter bc she changed the will. I'm definitely hurt about the last statement but the truth is that a lot of bs has been going on over there for awhile and whenever we tried to address it, we would be told that we are going to kill gma with the drama so basically everyone stepped back so a lot of things were done. I just found out her cc bill was 55xx for one month. That's over 2x her monthly income.
So let's see if I'm losing my mind or I'm exposing the truth. Thanks for all the advice. Xo
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Hannah, seems like a lot happened without your knowledge. I hope you can get to the bottom of this.

Even if your brother stalled hours before calling Hospice when your grandmother had passed, the doctor or nurse practitioner who comes to the house to officially pronounce a person has died, as you probably already know they can pretty much tell at what time death happened, there is no hiding that.

Hannah, many of us have been on the Aging Care forum for years, and we can only go by what the original writer tells us. Thus we ask a lot of questions. And only your answers can help guide us to better answers. Sorry if you felt that the writers were under the impression that you weren't familiar with Hospice, again we can only gauge from what you had written.

There might be others who are going through something similar as you so some of us will educate as we go along to help those who are reading get a better understanding.

Keep us up-to-date with your findings, we all would be curious to find out the outcome.
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I should know tomorrow bc the detective can't get the hospice/medical records without an ok. My mom said no and my uncle was in a medical conference all day and by the time he called back the detective was gone. However, he was able to speak with the APS worker, some of the visiting nurses before hospice, the police who have dealt with my mom and brother numerous times re violence, drugs, etc. so tomorrow both he and my uncle will know when she was placed, why it was at this time, was she legally competent, if so how did my mom use POA (the hospice social worker let that fact slip to me), if she wasn't, when was she declared and by which drs. I don't think she was ever declared but if she was that opens up a whole new can of worms bc how can she consent to 5k cc charges in a month, how can she be left alone with my brother when he's known to steal pills and be violent? Doesn't someone have to do due diligence? If she was competent then it's up to her to choose to be used so I guess tomorrow will bring more pieces.
Freqflyer I totally understand if people have questions, especially if I wrote something in an unclear way or more details are needed or whatever. And of course, with so many posters and the fact that I'm infrequent, I can't expect anyone to remember my trail but to say hospice isn't done in secret and never believe old people who promise stuff isn't really adding anything to the conversation and it reads like I'm being called stupid. Like I really think you can just say I think I'm going put someone on hospice and viola or that the house issue is bc I'm a fool. It's not even close. It stinks it went down like that but as you can see, I'm still more concerned about my gma than I am about a house.
I know that hospice can tell if it's been hours but the bank transfers took place at 10:49-10:52a (2 different transactions zeroing both accounts that are legally mine) my uncle was notified 10:45a hospice came out at 3p but you're right that they didn't put 3p, they put 12:30p and that's how he was legally able to get the money bc as far as the bank is concerned, she was alive when it happened. I said we have proof that she was dead but the death certificate is the only thing that they care about. It's just a bunch of drama bc my mom guilted my uncle into paying bc she said my gma had no money but it's bc they moved it. So I'm trying to recover it but it might be a losing battle bc I can't do much other than show the proof to the estate attorney and hope that he encourages him to return it but at this point, it's not really something I'm concerned with. I'm only interested in finding out what happened to my gma. Tbh, I'm a little disappointed that my uncle is so preoccupied with getting the money back bc while it's not chump change, it's not a lot and it's definitely less worrisome than all of the other things we've been learning about since she died.
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Sorry, I got time zones confused, the 10a incidents should be one hour ahead bc I was thinking of Indiana time but it was Michigan. But the 12:30 est is the correct time. I know I'm getting ahead of myself but I'm thinking that if we find out she was declared incompetent my uncle should move to have my mom removed as executor and get a lawyer and the police involved for both her and my brother for abusing their positions regarding finances, plus my mom knowingly left town knowing that he steals my gmas meds. The only thing is that he's always talking about "if I find out... I'm going to prosecute them" but then he never follows through. He starts with the money involved (he's a dr ffs), time involved, etc but seriously it's not possible for me to proceed alone bc I'm the grandkid and I can't get access to records, cc statements like he can and since her estate is small, it goes through a fast process so if we are going to take any action it has to be quick. Both he and my normal brother will spend hours discussing what they are going to do but never do it. It gets annoying especially since he's a dr, like hello aren't you a mandated reporter?
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As I've been reading this thread I can see you getting more and more (righteously) angry. I'm sorry you have to deal with this. Don't let it consume you, maybe take a mental health break for 24 hours and let things proceed without you. ((hugs))
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Excuse my ignorance: what is the authorities' standard routine in your grandmother's state when a death is reported or registered?
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I wish I could but it's a time sensitive matter and if I don't keep running the train's going to leave. I'm just anxious to see the papers and I gave my uncle a list of questions to ask hospice social worker and I'm hoping he calls at 9:01 but I bet he waits until lunch and then I'm thinking today is Friday, don't wait until lunch and waste 1/2 the day. Just sucks when you can't get access bc you're not the kid even though you're more concerned than the kid and know exactly what info to get. But yeah, maybe I should lie down. I'm not really angry, I'm more nervous and feel really bad for my gma bc I feel like I missed a lot of signs and honestly, I also didn't want to deal with their drama so I added to the problem. Maybe I should have just quit my job and taken her home. Cuz I posted a few months ago that she wanted to come stay with me in NY until the job ended. I mean I just figured she was over their bs but I should have realized it was probably much bigger than that. It's just that they are so crazy (it's mostly my brother, he's really volatile,my mom is just annoying and lies/manipulates and tries to kill herself 3-4x a year) and it makes people stay away which provides them with the perfect environment for bs. If I learn that my suspicions have some validity to them, I'll probably have a stroke and die.
I'll be back later with the update. Kinda hoping I'm wrong
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Churchmouse I found out that when hospice is involved, police do not go (at least in Michigan). Hospice comes and they took the body to local funeral home and the next day she went to Indiana. She still hasn't been buried. Was supposed to be last Sunday but was CANCELED bc 3/4 of her kids refused to contribute and expected my uncle to pay. He only asked for a few hundred from each, nope so he said no. Have you ever heard of a funeral cancellation? Now it's supposed to be Monday. Part of me thinks it's a sign from her that her body is still accessible but I'm not really into that sign stuff lol.
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I was slightly afraid that might be the case, that hospice would automatically = "expected" and therefore not requiring routine enquiries.

That used to be normal here too; but after Harold Shipman public opinion screeched to a halt and now all deaths, expected or not, are at least given a quick once-over by the coroner's office to make sure nobody has any concerns.

There must be a way for you to wave a small red flag, if only as a concerned member of the public? All you're saying is 'can you have a quick look at this, please' - you're not making specific accusations of foul play.
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I have waived the flag, detective is looking into things. Just got stopped by needing the OK by one of her kids to get records and I couldn't get my uncle before 5. So he should be able to see things today.
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So my uncle called her but of course, she wasn't there. Ugh. I told my uncle that if we get troublesome news but not enough for the police, we have to go to the lawyer. His response " that could cost quite a bit of money " wtf? He hates my mom and he's always going on with "if I find out she stole, cheated, hurt gma, I'm going after her" but now that there's a possibility of actually being able to do something he's whining about a few thousand dollars? There's nothing I hate more than people who blah blah but when it's go time, they hide.
I hope she calls back soon cuz I've literally been awake 2 days. I wish I knew how to hack into systems and can get it myself. Lol
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Iam so sorry for your loss. It seems like when our loved ones are alive its easy to feel like they will be here forever. I take care of my husband whovhas dementia. Some days although I take care of his physical needs, emoitionally I get tapped out. I feel a tremendous amount if guilt for not giving him more. When hes gone......god forbid.....I know I will be looking back in hindsight. Wishing I could've done more. I think that is a natural way to think. I know you loved your Grandmother so much...I believe she loved you too. Let yourself off the hook. You did the best you could. I understand your gut feelings. I get those to. You have gone to police and they have listened to you. You have done all you can. I hope you can let go for awhile and find time to cherish your memories and take care of you. You havent any responsibility for others actions. Let it play out. Karma is huge! Be gentle with yourself. Im so sorry for your loss.
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Hannah, I really hope that there will turn out to be nothing in it. Well! - I say nothing: your mother and brother have a lot to answer for in any case in terms of the care they gave your grandmother and the pressure they put her under. But that's a different league from having suspicions about how she came to pass away when and as she did, and *those* I hope and pray will turn out to be groundless, so that you won't ever have to think about them again. Hugs, take care of yourself.
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Well, the situation is definitely sketchy but not illegal. My gma actually signed herself on 10/23/16 (which fits the timeline of my possibly coming home and her bugging me for money). My uncle was pretty livid when the social worker told him the medical issue that qualified her bc according to him it wasn't appropriate but I guess when it was combined with an illness she had in 2015, she qualified. He was so confused about the secrecy considering he's a dr and my other brother is a nurse. Then he got ahold of another brother's gf (I have 4) and she said my gma told her she was on a new program bc she got baths and the visiting nurse. She had mentioned previously that her Medicare benefits ended re aide and nurse. So whether my gma was pressured or just chose to hear the bath and nurse and not that she's agreeing to kill herself for no reason. She's competent but very prone to being "guided". I guess we will never know. My uncle personally feels that this was another example of their abuse and like all their other bs, they're protected from consequences. I feel bad that my gma felt so trapped that she didn't even tell him bc as long as he's been a dr (36 years) anything medical warrants a call to him. It's definitely very bizarre but nothing more we can do. I guess we will have our theories and they will hide behind "she signed it herself" and that's the end. My uncle feels terrible that she killed herself for 24 baths. Oh well, I'm going to bed. Thanks for your advice.
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hanna: Well, I'm sorry that there was so much sturm und drang (aka "big time stress and upset") over your gma's death, but you've done all you can and should be proud of yourself. Others might not have done so much.

My sympathy, and be good to yourself. [[[Hugs]]]
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I am sorry for the stress you have gone through.

I need to say this, though. Going on hospice care is NOT agreeing to kill yourself for no reason. Wherever did you get that notion?
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Hannah, I am a bit confused. Your uncle, who is a doctor, said that his Mother signed up for Hospice so that she could kill herself? That is very strange that a MD would even think that way. I hope you were able to correct his way of thinking.
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He's not talking about hospice in general like the people who feel like the point of hospice is to kill the person. We understand that hospice is great for many people. His point is that the medical issue at the time didn't warrant hospice and the illness resulting from the shingles effect from 2015 was the deciding factor to qualify her. The situation is complicated bc just a few weeks prior I had posted that she was begging me to bring her to NY to stay with me. I made arrangements with my RN brother to meet halfway 10/9. I called her 9/30 and she said she would be ready. Her bday was 10/2 and I couldn't get ahold of her the entire month until the end when the request for the heloc payoff. There's just something so bizarre about the whole thing. There's really only 2 options, my gma was a shady diabolical person, which doesn't line up with the gma I knew or she was trapped in a terrible situation, felt scared to say the truth and was guided by bad people. Anyway, we will never know so barring some unlikely smoking gun, it's done. But I tried the best I could and that's the end of the story.
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