Does my grandma's death sound suspicious or am I paranoid?

And for someone like my gma to go on hospice is to understand that you will be dead soon and she wasn't talking like someone who thought they were dying soon. Maybe it was denial, maybe it wasn't her understanding, maybe she heard what she wanted- the aides coming, the respite for my brother who made no secret that he was sick of caring for her. Who knows?

People tried to help but it was one of those situations "no one helps" but then when people tried to help"gtfo I don't need u" he just wanted $ but my family doesn't have it, they tried to give time but it wasn't what he wanted. Could be that if he wasn't around to monitor conversation then things would have been discovered? At this point, like I said, we will have our suspicions and theories but that's all they are.
Happy holidays to all. I'll be back if I need advice regarding my patient sometime but this nightmare is about as solved as it's going to be. Best wishes for you guys!

FF I wish all Drs were as smart as we expect them to be.
Some people cheat their way through college or use false medical degrees or simply lie and no one checks. I am not accusing Hannah's brother but not knowing what his specialty is I don't know how broad his general medical knowledge is.
Failed medical students, nurses and even pharmaceutical reps have posed as Drs in hospitals.
As far as certifying a patient's death at least in NYS a hospice RN can do that and simply has to notify their MD who has not seen them since before their hospice admission. I have been asked by an MD several times what to put on the death certificate. I usually said "multiple organ failure due to X disease"
If Gma signed herself up for hospice ad she was not considered incompetent and their were no obvious signs of assault then that is what was seen.
I repeat what I said before the crime probably lies in the emptying of the bank accounts especially if done by people who would not ultimately be entitled to it.
Hannah has probably done all she can as she says the money is not enough to worry about. Gma is dead and would have been soon in any case. brother is known to be a druggy and violent so no doubt the women are all afraid of him. hence Gma wanted Hannah home and Mom took off to Florida.
Not only is Dr and nurse relatives mandated reporters so are all the hospice nurses and social workers and do have to document their visits and provide reports for every visit and are expected to inform their suspicions to their supervisor. In this computer age these reports can not be changed. Another report can be generated correcting the first but the original can not be erased.
One last thought if Gma did sign up for hospice in order to kill herself it was her choice and a lot of terminally ill people would like to be able to do that. More likely brother "pursuaded' her to do it so that he could have access to her medications. Even Fentynal patches are not sacred, they can be cut and the drug extracted.

Are you crazy? My uncle did undergrad at Notre Dame and medical school at northwestern with Summa Cum Laude, Latin honors and alpha omega alpha. How dare you insinuate that he's some dr from a loser college who barely got his credentials. He runs a successful private practice in a major us city and if the chief of his specialty at the biggest hospital in that city and is regularly called in to consult on unusual cases. FYI, the reason I couldn't get ahold of him the other day until after 5 is bc he was one of the keynote speakers at a medical conference. Whereas, the Drs in Michigan are located in a small town and Grand Rapids is the closest city and I would hardly call that major (not that she even saw Drs there). My uncle is exponentially smart. I also have 2 degrees from Notre Dame. I only got into caregiving bc I was an editor in Chicago but my division moved to the SF branch. My dad had this opportunity for me, it pays well and I actually enjoy it, but it's just for now. Needless to say, the last thing you can question is our intelligence.
So again, how dare you have the nerve to say such a thing. You're not a very good person.

I'm telling you that my gma is legally competent but has always been easy to manipulate/use/stolen from. Anyway, like you said, she's dead so who cares? Someone who is thinking that they are near death don't call asking to move to New York with you, they don't cry bc their cc is thousands of dollars bc they won't be here to pay it. The reason more reports weren't filed is bc she covers for them. Police have been called numerous times by nurses, relatives regarding her missing pills, she says she flushed them or misplaced them or whatever. No one can do anything if she's competent and lies to cover.
Ps my brother is a geriatric RN and started working in NH at age 17 and he's currently in medical school for geriatric medicine. So just stop talking.
I'm out of this place. So many of you talk to people like they have learning disabilities.

hannahonee...I am glad to see you are poking around a bit into this matter. Everything you've talked about seems "possible" from my point of view. To some it may sound like some fiction found in a novel, but I don't believe you are so wrought with grief that you are grasping at straws. You sound level-headed and matter-of-fact in your analysis. Family dynamics can be difficult enough - throw in addiction and it takes things to a whole other level. You're advocating for your gma when she didn't/couldn't. You're not in this for some pay out as I picked up on in a different thread. I would want to get to the bottom of this if I were you too - if for nothing else, peace of mind. Some folks can't wrap their head around the possibility that not everything has a logical explanation. Sadly, there is darkness in this world. Best of luck sorting this out!

Do it. Do it. Do it. Thank God for the detective. Move ahead with this at great speed. My grifter sister tried to kill my mother twice. Your situation is too suspicious. Move on this. Get all the documentation you can get your hands on. MOVE MOVE MOVE!!!!!! Something's up.

Yes Heatherb67. My situation sounded like a novel too. My sister stalked my mother and me separately for years. She sent nasty, greasy looking ex cons to stalk my daughter since she was in kindergarten. She's 14 now. She's made my life a living hell. She called my mother with death threats for months. I changed mom's number to an unlisted number. My sister got the number and continued the threats. (You'll DIE!!!! Breathing....etc.) Then I got mom a brand new never used unlisted number that she was never to give to anyone. Period. Only the alarm service had it. Mom's neighbor demanded the phone number. She got really ugly when I wouldn't give it to her. The neighbor came down to mom's house and pounded on all the doors and windows scaring her. I called the neighbor and told her to never come back, I had her and her violent acts on camera and I would have her arrested on terrorist charges. The neighbor was taping my call and trying to set me up as being mentally incompetent. This is the easiest way to get rid of a person with Power of Attorney which I have. She told me that I should put flyers in all the mailboxes telling the neighbors news of my mother's comings and goings, her health, etc. I told the idiot that it would be a great way to get my mother killed and it was a stupid idea that my security team would never agree to. So, now we know the neighbor is my sister's (obviously paid) informant. Very helpful when you're trying to kill your mother. Magically, my sister didn't get the number and no more death threats occurred. Previous to this, my sister paid a visit and got my mom's gun off the bedroom closet shelf. Her son and his girlfriend kept my mother occupied in another part of the house. Something distracted her and she hid the gun on the floor of the hall closet. The gun did not have a safety. She planned to make my mother's death look like an accident. My mother found the gun and knew she hadn't put it on the floor of the hall closet. My sister and I were the only ones who knew where she kept it. A few weeks later two men rushed my mother after she opened her garage door. One kept a look out. The other one went straight to mom's bedroom closet. After mom found the gun in the hallway closet, she hid it in a completely different location. When the man didn't find her gun in the bedroom closet, he and the lookout left. They didn't steal anything. Just looked in the bedroom closet. Things with my sister were obviously escalating. We kept our house and my husband, daughter and I moved in with my mother for the summer. We installed the same security cameras as the White House. Facial recognition. I had security specialists go over the house for safety and master key it. No more unscrupulous neighbor with a key. I bought a Kel Tec shotgun for my husband and a nine millimeter for me. We practiced with the new guns at the range. My daughter and I have always been crack shots. (So was my grandfather.) We got lifetime concealed carry permits. A few months later, my sister came by in a car with very dark tinted windows full of people. I could see peoples' heads, but not identities. She, alone, got out and wanted to know if mom was dead. I told her to leave immediately. She refused. I stated again for her to leave immediately and she and her family members were to never come back. My niece got out of the back seat and lunged at me as if to attack me. I didn't move. I didn't even blink. I told them to leave immediately and never come back or I was calling the police. They left. Mom lives with us now in the wintertime and we live with her in the summertime. So far no more problems. According to my attorneys, this type of thing is a common occurrence.

Hannahhonee73 People assume that these situations occur in "white trash" families. Not so. I am proud of you and your family members for your academic achievements and your successes.

Hannah Your Grandma Lived a full and healthy Life until She died at 96 years, which is a remarkably long Life. I'd suggest for Your own sanity and health to let it go. Just try to carry on with Your own Life, as if You pursue this suspicion You hold about Your Brother..You won't have a Life, plus You will turn All the Family against You. No One Lives forever, and at 96 years of age it was Your Grandma's Time.

I personally...I wouldn't be able to carry on with my life if I were in OP's shoes. Honestly. I don't know if it's a generation thing or a personality thing...But for me, accountability is important. Especially in light of the brother's career/aspirations. Would you want that man responsible for caring for a loved one? Besides, it seems OP intends to let this unfold and isn't conducting an investigation on her own, but I think it warrants looking into. Sometimes justice needs a little nudge.

Acceptance to hospice is sometimes kept secret. My twisted sisters had mom evaluated and accepted. I found out by mistake. Very dysfunctional families do some very strange things.

I can't do much about the suspicions bc everything was pretty well thought out. However, the lawyer thinks I have a good undue influence re the will so I think the estate lawyer is going to suggest mediation (which I prefer) to keep costs down. Hopefully, I can get my 50% and use the other money I have to buy a house far away from them. The other good thing about mediation is maybe I can get answers out of them in front of people that might support my suspicions bc detective said he'd need some proof that they intentionally sped up her death. My real hope is to get justice for my gma.
Go on with my life so my family doesn't turn on me? It's ok bc she was 96? Those are some weak justifications. You should read about the levels of moral reasoning bc that is a low level. Justice is more important than caring if someone likes me. I loved my gma and maybe 96 is a good age for you to be ok with being put to sleep but it's not ok with me. As long as I'm doing everything properly, like contacting the right people and looking into things maturely and not harassing or accusing my mom or brother, acting crazy or manipulating evidence to fit, etc then I'm doing the right thing.
I'll return in a month with an update. Take care all.

Glad you came back Hannah to update us. i think you are doing the right thing in putting as much distance as possible between yourself and this craziness and hope you get justice one day.
i don't think anyone meant that it is OK to hasten someone's death but just that it simply may have been her time to go.
Mediation sounds like an excellent idea. Do yu think that brother will agree to that? We will look forward to your next update.

It's funny how the mind works, sometimes we see or suspect something is wrong, simply because everything doesn't fall into place. You were right not to pay off the second mortgage, but I doubt that accelerated her death. Death can come suddenly, I know it almost happened to me.
Then we start to think about the problem. If you suspect that something was wrong you should have intervened found out the truth. Remember there is always two sides to every story. You should have talked to her doctors. The people who know hospice, know they don't just put people into hospice without the doctor's recommendation.
I knew my mother was dying, the day my sister and I took her to the hospital. My father-in-law at 93 seemed just fine for a 93-year man, but suddenly took a turn for the worse. He died 5 days after he enter hospice same for my mother.
It is sad that family has to fight over inheritance, we all agreed that whatever my mother's will and trust said we would honor her wishes.
My father-in-law didn't have anything to leave behind. My wife had to take a week off work to take care of all the paperwork that was required by the state and the federal government.
One thing I will say is I did not like my mother cancer doctor, It seemed all he was interested in was making money. He recommended an experimental drug treatment, my brother and I both researched it and found out it had horrible side effects. My mother insisted on trying the treatment and sure enough, the side effects were as predicted. BUT, that was my mother's decision, she was capable of making her own mind.

Hospice does not take a patient unless they fill their criteria. Your Gmother must have needed it. Like mentioned before, things can happen quickly with the elderly. You could ask for an autopsy but if there Coroner sees no foalplay, then the family will have to pay and it's expensive. I wouldn't accuse unless u have lots of money and backup. People die of old age. The body just starts to shut down. If ur Grandmother changed her will I would hope the lawyer would notice if she wasn't competent or being coerst. For peace of mind, let things fall where they may. Ask for something to remember her by and then let things go.

I have to say...Hospice is not a death sentence. There is a woman in Mom's AL who has been on it for 2 years. Criteria has changed. Hospice Canberra a good thing for families. Medicare pays for supplies that the family usually pays out of pocket.

If you actually can even think that your brother is capable of killing Granny, you will likely never prove it an the relationship will be very difficult should you ever need to be in the same room with him.
Having said that I make it a policy to not allow murderers into my life.....politely walk away, do not associate with him, do not allow a relationship with your children.
Even the unproven suspicion is enough to make a relationship untenable.

Maybe you should read the whole thread before you say anything. 1- I never said hospice killed her 2- I never said she wasn't eligible for hospice 3- I couldn't intervene bc no one knew what was going on 4- I could care less about having a relationship with these people 5- the mortgage has nothing to do with speeding up her death 6- I'm not just going to let things go. That's why bad people don't have consequences, it's much easier to say "it's not worth the time and aggravation and money" that's what they rely on and 99% of the time they win.
Here's an update for the other people-
I can pursue criminal charges against my brother for bank fraud. I have proof of $6780 illegally removed. The estate lawyer is asking for me to sign a waiver if he returns it but I'm ignoring it and all communication from them right now until my lawyer advises me regarding the will/mediation. I get the feeling he's nervous about prosecution and I might be able to have leverage. I also discovered that he and my mom were moving everything except my gma's monthly bills out of the accounts and into theirs. It's obvious some are drug transactions bc it's $150 every other day.

You have hit some nerves. It is not about money, family, etc. It is about advocating for your beloved grandmother. As you suspected, fraud is being uncovered. Stay with your lawyer's advice. The other side is nervous and certainly does not have your best interests at heart. Let them twist in the wind. As mom's lawyer would say "Make them roll over."

My thoughts are with you. I think you are doing the best you can for justice. I do hope you are taking care of yourself. This kind of stress can make you sick. If you can do something that help you forget and help you clear your head for an hour or two a day it would be helpful, although i know thats easier said than done. I am so sorry for your loss.

hannahhonee ~ If there are no consequences for unconscionable behavior - who will be next? I completely agree with your position and hope it results in justice.

Yes, Hannah. Stick with YOUR lawyer's advice.

Sorry so long to update but I've been busy. I bought a house and the lady I was caring for died. So between getting the house, her dying and life... Anyway, the mere threat of suing and things my mom and brother had been doing being looked into quickly opened up the negotiations. Since I didn't want to spend 25k or more on lawyers, the final settlement was that I get 1/3 of net home proceed sale plus 100% of the added value paid by me. It took a little time to get the appraisal and the value solely added by things I did like pay for the fence, etc. It's currently under contract to a flipper and selling for less than I would like but since it's not mine and my junkie brother is too stupid to realize that he can get more if he did some things.... however, at least I get something, everyone knows how shady they are and the long term reputation for them is forever blackened. Once it's over, the agreement is that they don't bother me and vice versa. Just goes to show that I was right about being suspicious and I hope that they screw up and open their mouths to the wrong person and get criminal charges.