I have posted about a week ago about my dad trying to convince me to get him out of AL. He is 87, with some degree of dementia, on top of numerous personality disorder issues and controlling issues...
Well, I thought things had turned around. Rather than a studio room , there is a 1 BR apartment available in the AL, that they have offered to him, and he can afford. He seemed enthusiastic about it, and asked me to talk to them about it, contingent on making some renovations to the room which I negotiated with them and are underway. I spend some time discussing what changes should occur, and agreed with them that he will move in contingent on these changes.
Then, today when I visited, he sprung on me that " I need to get out of assited living ASAP " and " I want to buy a house near you and get 24/7 in house caretakers. "
I told him that I dont have time to help in buying / selling a house and setting this all up. He agreed that " yes I dont want to take your time up but help me setting this up"
I tried to say " you need to stay in assisted living, no way this will work" . but somehow in discussion/ argument settled that, the only way I would support this is if we hire on a geriatric care managment company to arrange all this and work with you and a realtor and caretaker agenices to set it all up, and I will be out of the loop.
Let me say that he has the money in estate to fund this, if for a short period of time. He thinks he is " only going to live a couple more years' . he is 87, but to me, who knows that he may live another 10 years.
anyway, I said that I do NOT agree with trying to buy a house and live in your own house at this stage, even with expensive 24/7 care at $30,000 a month, even if you can afford it, is not a good idea.
but he tonight seemed insistent on it. I told him that if he does this he is either 1) on his own, I wont be involved, or 2) I'll provide him with a geriatric care management company to help him and elder care attorney, and thats all I do.
Then I second guessed myself and wondered, " could I help with this?" in another post I mentioned how narcissistic, and micromanging he is. I helped him buy a house 10 years ago and it almost killed me in the process. I could not do it again I think ....
anyway, during an argument I said that I cannot support getting your own house, but if you insist, I'll retain a geriatric care management company, at cost of $200/hour and they can help me. somehow he seemed to still want me to do the work. So I stormed out of his AL room and said, " well you are on your own". not a pleasant thing. As I walked down the hallway of the AL, he was yelling down the hall calling my name desperately.
Then, 20 mins later, while I was driving home he called me and said " I'll do whatever you say. I beg of you please listen, I'll do what you tell me". this was after 2 hours of him trying to dictate out to me what I should do! He then was anxious to know when I would next visit in person. I said " Im busy the next day or two, but you can call me tomorrow night, and then we will see when I will come by"
I said " well, step 1 is, you cant get out of AL in a hurry. you have to stay there a while. Then also, to buy a house etc will take some time. you have to put up with it for some time. " and 2) if you really want to get your own house and 24/7 care, I dont have time to do it. Take me out of the loop. We can hire a geriatric care management company to help and they will charge out of your estate $200/hour of work they do. He said " yes, yes, whatever it takes"
well, I guess I'm running my inheritance down into the ground, but thats all I can do. I sure am not going to take my personal time to look for a house and nit pik along with him as he really wants. I'm glad to just take zero inheritance at this time.
ok Im just venting I guess. but also looking to see if you all think I could have handled this differently.
Hard not to get hurt by his angry words, trying to undermine you with your son. Chalk it up to both dementia and his own personality.
"Dad, if you live at home with full time care, you're going to run out of money in x months. What's your plan for after that? I'm trying to look at the bigger picture here."
You don't have to say it to him-he'd likely dismiss it. Just know that it's true.
Well, the next step has happened, almost as predicted by @waytomisery, as it sounds like this is a common thing:
My dad has done a cycle of calling his siblings, and told his brother that " my sons are trying to steal away my money". He then told my uncle that "my son has gone to the courts and taken out some sort of power of attorney and will siphon away my money",
The truth of course is that my dad himself had his own attorney draft up the POA document which we all signed! I have not gone to the courts at all!
My dad then asked his uncle to come into town to visit in a few weeks, to come and "mediate and sort everything out for me". He also asked him to not say anything to me about it until he is in town. My uncle found all of this very odd and so he called me up right away. He sounds supportive of my position which is that my dad should stay in AL, and that going home is not feasible. He feels that any reasonable spending on facilities is fair, which I agree with too. So that is good that he seems to be on my page. He will come into town to visit and have this talk, but wanted to give me a heads up about it.
Other than 1) standing firm in my position and 2) making sure (which I think I do) that all the payments/ financial stuff I have done is well recorded and organized, anything else you all recommend that you do at this time ?
MAKE FREAKING SURE HE HAD THE Freaking INSURANCE TO COVER SLL CATETAKERS COMING IN N OUT OF CARING FOR HIM ASIDE FROM The Agency’s Insurance.
It Only Takes ONE JERK to CLAIM DAMAGING HEALTH INJURIES. To SUE.
I found my LO AL home from the woman in daycare. She lost her whole life savings due to an “injured” worker..
what a wonderful woman she was… AND SHE DID NOT DESERVE THIS.
Don’t bring it up to try to “ fix “ it .
Your father will come up with all kinds of manipulative lies and plans , and false beliefs in his head while he is fixated on trying to leave all on his own . My mother told everyone in the family that I stole her house and her money . ( The house was sold to pay for her AL) . When that didht work she called 911 to say I was abusing her .
First of all dumb it down . You are right , your father did not get all those details to sink in his broken brain .
About going back home ….. you say .
“ It’s not possible “.
“ It’s too expensive”.
Then change the subject . If that doesn’t work ,, say “ I’m sorry you feel that way , but I have to go now , I have an appt .” Leave or hang up the phone.
This will likely go on for months . The more you try to talk to him about it . The more he will come up with cr4p .
Look up “ Gray Rock “. Basically you don’t react to his cr4p.
It took my mother 6 months to stop her fixation to go home .
When my mother called 911, I didn’t go see her or call her for 6 weeks ! She had to know I wasn’t putting up with lies that I was abusing her .
Now that the holiday is over , I suggest not taking him out for at least 2-3 weeks . Let him get used to the idea , that this is where he lives. And don’t take him out to shop ( ie , Macy’s to buy a belt ). A lot of his shopping can be done online and delivered.
He will ask you to jump as often as he can . Don’t do it . You don’t have to waste time shopping if it can be delivered from online . Dad can pick it out online when you visit . If he says he wants to go out . “ Sorry , not this time , I have to work overtime this week , we will get it delivered”.
You have to come up with “ therapeutic “ lies . To keep him calm and maintain your boundaries .
BTW, good for your son, he’s a smart cookie !
Since my son is back in town for the holidays I had a few family members over for lunch, and had my dad come to our house for lunch.
He ended up getting into a discussion with my son about "how horrible it is to live in my one room in an assisted living". He went on to tell my son " maybe you can help me in my cause, and help convince your dad (me) : the reason your dad (me) and his brother have put me in assisted living is because of cost, because they want inheritance money left over when I die. They dont want me to spend my money even though its my money". My son was shocked and tried to say "Im sure my dad and uncle would NOT do that to you and that is not the reason".
Now, the reason I tried to give my dad for not returning home is that its infeasible, unsafe, and even if we get 24/7 caretakers at home, there are lots of logistical issues and problems, including that I don't have time to manage a house 1 hour away, caretakers and all, especially with his pickiness. However, not sure if he heard what I said, but he has decided to take the angle of "you and your brother are forcing me into assisted living because you don't want me to spend my money". It led to a bit of an argument, and I huffed "fine, take me out of the will completely, that will prove that its not all about your money, I dont care about it".
Anyway, nothing sank in. Do I try to fix the situation ? or let it be, let him think that me and my brother are "forcing him to assisted living due to cost"? I'm fine with that - I had already explained to key family members that for his care, he really needs AL. Yes cost is a factor, but not the only reason by any means. We could bear the cost of at home care, at risk he may well run out of money soon, but it could be done, but would be a LOT of work and stress on me. So cost is not the full reason by any means...
Everyone is different and will react differently to different types of dementia.
So sorry that you are dealing with all of this.
That BIMS score of 8 was 3 months ago, and I think it may have gone lower now, although he has periods of more lucidity and other periods of worsening. He has a geriatrician PCP who is glad to re-evaluate him, but its tough getting him into the car and there and back. One of the many battles.
Its still not easy but I'm getting better and better day by day at saying "no" to illogical requests. I'm now going to start thinking/ looking towards a future possible memory care level of care for him.
Prayers that he settles in to his new home and finds a way to some happy moments for himself and to be easy on you and your sibs.
Thanks to everyone on this forum for educating and enlightening me. Thanks ! Thanks! Thanks!
Today is 4 days after the argument/ me storming out. No further discussion about that incident, and he may have mostly forgotten about it (but my repeated phone calls have dropped, so something clicked/ registered in subconscience...).
no more talk about moving to a house.
Today I visited, because we had planned that I would pick him up at 6:30 PM, right after the AL dinner , and take him to the store for some shopping. I got there at 6:30 PM and he was not at dinner. I went to his room, and found that he was in his PJ's and said to me, "why are you here at 6:30 AM?" the rest of the time was spent discussing "how" he could have flipped AM and PM and become totally time disoriented. Of course, now I know there is a simple reason, dementia. I was very calm and hopefully supportive in this. At the same time, I think he may have realized his brain really is not working well.
As for the room, staying at current Al vs other AL, or going elsewhere, in my mind, going to a home is out of the question. Even going to another AL right now is not an option. I told him essentially there are only 2 options on the table: 1) move to the 1 BR nice unit in the same AL that is only 20% more rent than the studio ( a great deal in my mind) or 2) stay in your studio. No other options. IN other words, in my mind, he should not leave the current facility . Personally, moving to the 1 BR unit in the current AL should be a slam dunk decision! But dad is throwing up complaints about the 1 BR unit still, silly stuff. If so, fine, stay in the studio. the reasons to NOT be in the studio are not rational to me. Whether he stays in the studio or moves to the 1 BR in the same AL, is a minor issue now in my mind, thanks to you all.
Going back home is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! thanks to a recent significant change in my frame of mind , thanks to your feedback. There is no reason to try to follow the "wants" of a person in significant dementia when it conflicts with what he needs. I went through his recent medical records from rehab hosp in Sept 2023 , which I hadnt gone through in detail. They rated him as a moderate cognitive impairment, BIMS score 8, and that he needs 24/7 care. BIMS score 8 is moderate cognitive impairment, but at the cusp of severe.
To me, he has deteriorated further as far as cognitive status since then. I'm beginning even to wonder if shift from regular AL to memory care may be needed soon.
thanks for your support in helping me get a backbone in this.....
Yes, I realize now that I'm still half way down the rabbit hole. I need to get myself out before its too late. Reading these forums has helped a lot.
I do need to read up more about dementia.
_Strugglin'
She also is in a Studio room and we do have her on a waiting list for a one bedroom. Her room is very pretty though, bright and a beautiful view of gardens outside her window. After one of her falls, she had to recover in a NH for a short time and we had lined up a one bedroom at the AL for her to go into, but she refused to go, therefore lost that availability and who knows when the next one bedroom will come....but she absolutely cannot go home.
She has always been a negative person and I believe Narcissistic as well. She steaming mad every time I go to see her and it makes the visit extremely uncomfortable. So today.....I am going to pray first, then head over with my chin up and visit. Should it become uncomfortable for me at any point, I will let her know I love her but cannot stay and visit with arguing happening. it is no productive for her and me.
So here I go.......I will report back later today and let you all know how it went. Meanwhile, I am praying for EVERYONE on this site, to be strong and make decisions that will be productive for their loved one as well as themselves. Such a site of awesome folks, I can't thank you all enough!
The sister is quite content EXCEPT when her sister visits. She screams "when can I go back to my apartment?". She is perfectly content around other family members.
Sadly, my professor has decided she can't visit sis anymore, as she is a huge trigger. Her kids, her husband, friends all visit and it's fine.
Consider that in the short term, you may be triggering for dad.
I’m sorry. In his mind, it’s all about him because that is what dementia is.
Its time for little white fibs. "Lets discuss that tomorrow" and then change the subject. There is no way Dad will be able to do what he wants on his own, maybe even with your help. He can no longer sign a contract of any kind. He does not need a house for one. You are stressing yourself over something that can't or never will happen.
Maybe, as suggested, you need a vacation. Dad is safe where he is. Block him from calling. Tell the AL to call u only if an emergency. Your Dad will worsen and will need Memory care. ALs can only do so much. See if any ALs in you areas give seminars on Dementia and ALZ. It will help u understand what is happening to Dad. We have all been there and its hard to get thru your head that your parent cannot be reasoned with anymore. That they no longer understand.
If you are POA it would be your responsibility.
With a diagnosis of dementia and and active POA he legally can not enter into a contract.
I suppose you could make the house hunt/search an almost impossible task. the restriction you put on it is that the house HAS to meet the following criteria.
Ranch
Handicap accessible
No carpet
Wide halls
Wide doorways
Roll in shower with 1 bathroom being a "wet room"
If there are stairs anywhere in or out of the house there needs to be ramps in place.
Any porch or deck area needs to be gated so that if he ever becomes a flight risk the gates can be locked.
The yard that he would have access to needs to be gated as well.
and if you want to make it more difficult
The stove must be Induction so it will shut off if accidently turned on and no pan is placed on the burner. (also safe if a towel or anything other than an induction safe item is placed on a burner, they will not burn)
Getting all that is like looking for a Purple Unicorn.
You are the one who is holding all of the cards in this game. You have the winning hand. So, don’t fret over what he is saying. You know that it’s best for him to remain in his assisted living facility.
So, why would you consider pacifying your dad at this point in time? It’s only going to lead him to believe that there may be a possibility of him being able to successfully live alone in a home when he can’t.
I understand that you’re at your wits end. He’s pulling your strings. Don’t agree to be his puppet.
You can either ignore his remarks or you can tell him that you are not going to be involved in his plans to buy a home.
No one, not you or I, or anyone else gets everything they want in life. He is being provided with his needs and that is what matters most.
Best wishes to you.
Turn your phone off and take a vacation. You do not need to be involved in his daily manufactured drama.
I have one of my sisters turned off right now because I’m sick and I don’t need her daily drama she makes for her own entertainment that she decided would be fun to somehow try and drag me into. I don’t even know if she realizes she is turned off because I didn’t say anything. I just did it.
But I think what I'll do is, not visit in person for a while. I think I'm more liable to give in when in person than by phone. Will limit to some phone calls (on my time) only for a while.
You are allowing a man with dementia to call the shots here, meaning you've agreed to jump down the rabbit hole WITH him.
Go back to your last post and read the comments a few times. This has nothing to do with inheritance, which will be run into the ground one way or another.....but about what's safe and REASONABLE for BOTH of you. Dad is at YOUR mercy, as evidenced by him saying, "I'll do whatever you say. I beg of you please listen, I'll do what you tell me". Tell him what he has to do now.
It's the holidays, the most wonderful time of the year! You have things to do besides pick up dad's phone calls, going to see dad, listening to dad's complaints, dealing with his demands, and so on. Tell him you both need a cooling off period, or a break from idiocy, or something. Stick to no-contact for a while. Believe me, dad will be busy at AL with their plans to keep residents happy. If he doesn't see or talk to you, he'll survive. They always do.
Then after a month or so or whenever you think you can get back to Daddy Dearest without throwing up, do it. Then what? Methinks the drama will continue.
Or maybe you don't get back to him.
Whatever, you don't help him get a house. You don't provide a geriatric manager. You do.......nothing. Oh, maybe wish him a happy new year, but WAIT.....
He'll want to draw you back in, but the man has dementia. His brain is turning to mush and has holes in it! He can't handle decision-making. He is in no way able to live on his own.
Don't quit your job. Don't move him in with you. That's my advice and I'm sticking to it.
This is very harmful to your Dad, and it must stop.
You need to tell your father that he is no longer competent to make this decision and that he cannot any longer care for himself. That this ALF is his home now, and that is NOT GOING TO CHANGE.
No argument. No discussion. End of subject.
Then you tell him calmly that when this subject comes up you will be leaving, or hanging up the phone.
IF your father is competent enough to call his own attorney, leave his own care, buy his own home, then he will do so, right? And you should resign any POA you have at that point.
But he isn't. So he won't.
You are making this into a big deal and a huge issue with all this guesswork about costs and attorneys and what places to live.
Your Dad is 87 and is requiring in- facility care.
You will never get him to adjust as long as you keep discussing and arguing this.
Stop it at once.
I think it is time for you to meet with the admins at the facility where your Dad is and to take their advice, even if that advice is to cut way down on calls and visits for a while. Your Dad is having trouble adjusting to in facility care and that is normal, but you being wishy-washy about it is going to harm him and going to delay his adjustment enormously.
And if you truly think your Dad could be out on his own? TRULY??? Then I have to wonder.
I think you just need to decide how involved you want to be. 100% in, 100% out... not sure you can be only 50% in/out because as his mind declines he won't be able to keep up his end of "the bargain" in the future. Are you his PoA? If not, this would be condition of helping him -- if he has legal capacity to assign you.
Depending on what state you both reside in, he may be able to pay you for providing in-home care, management and assistance. You would need to find out from an elder law attorney in your state. In Minnesota where I live, a person requiring a caregiver can hire their family member to work for them, allowing them to receive compensation. The family member must first enroll as a personal care assistant to become eligible for this home-care program. Not sure if there is a limit to how much he can pay you. There may need to be a contract, but an attorney would know this. This way, he gets you to care for him, and you get paid to do what you *know* is going to be a difficult job (and also get your inheritance little by little). Just putting this out as an option, but you'd have to think long and hard about spending that much time with him every day, day after day. But don't support him buying a house that needs a lot of upkeep. Maybe a 1-level townhouse or condo, of a senior living community.
A geriatric manager won't have the legal authority to purchase a house or any real estate (as a PoA can be enabled to). They are in high demand and there's not many of them so I'd find one first and talk to them about the limits of what they can and will do with your Dad. A GM may be the answer, or not. They usually have more than 1 client, so your Dad's needs may not be able to get addressed as soon as he or you assume. Get the facts first before committing to this arrangement. What would cause a GM to drop a client (if this is a thing that happens)?
Or, he signs a pre-need guardianship legal document. If you step away 100%, this means no PoA for you. Maybe he'll assign someone else, or a professional PoA (like a lawyer) and a 3rd party guardian. If he doesn't do this a judge will assign a guardian for him.
But if you attempt to keep one foot in and one out, you may be dragged along for a ride. If your Dad doesn't have any other health issues, he may live more than 10 years. My Aunt for whom I am PoA is on her way to being 105.
Try to remember that whatever his current cognitive and physical state is right now, it will not stay at this level of function. He isn't thinking he will decline but you must, in order to make a wise decision.
I don't agree that they need to be all in or all out completely. But they do need to stop catering to dads wants and set up what dad needs and ignore dads complaining and unreasonable demands and expectations. If they don't dad will consume the OP like the infamous blob from the movie: The Blob.
The OP is running around like a chicken with it's head cut off trying to please dad and make dad happy. OP needs to realize nothing is going to make dad happy.
Stay strong OP on moving dad into his own house. You can do this!!!
You say the AL he's in is decent and they've given him the available apartment instead of just a room. That's good. He belongs there.
If he wants to leave on his own and buy another house at his age and everything else, let him. Don't help him do it and when he gets hiimself into trouble and likely will, don't help him then either. That would be when it's time for the geriatric care manager and that time is not now.
Take the advice of Isthisrealyreal in the comments. It is good advice. You have to let him succeed or fail with no imput from you.
It's hard but that's what you have to do.
My dad did, he bought a truck, drove himself right out of his board and care home, 400 miles away from me. Found a small trailer and lived his last years on his terms.
Sometimes we just have to step away and let them succeed or fail without any input from us.
It was hard to watch, I knew the condition he was in when we were called to help and I knew that he would end up right back in that condition but, it was his life and as long as he could do what needed doing, go for it. But! No help, not even finding a geriatric case manager because he should be able to find the help he needs if he is functioning on a full charge, if not, he stays were he is.
Becoming the reasoning adult to your parent is hard and goes against everything that we are taught as children. It is also really hard to be the bad guy but, we have to do what we believe is the best when they can no longer do it.
So, if he can arrange this grand scheme without your input at all, then he gets to move, otherwise, welcome home dad.
I love this !!!
Take a hiatus from your father so that you can think straight.
He is where he belongs, they all try and pull that crap he is pulling on you. His brain is broken he is not making sound decisions.
Actually, he most likely should be in MC. Move him to the apartment and let it be.
Tell him when his doctor says in writing that he can leave you will take it into consideration. Get a handle on this, don't cave.
No is a complete sentence stick to it.
I think you should stop seeing and talking to your dad for a few weeks. He has no business buying a house and it's ridiculous for him to have 24/7 care givers.
Assisted living is suitable for someone in his mental state. You really need to start standing up to your dad instead of letting him run the show.
If you have any sense that your father’s cognitive functioning is declining, you owe it to both him AND YOURSELF to arrange for him to be assessed by a psychiatrist, psychologist, or social worker trained in geriatric care.
Ask the administrator or medical supervisor at his AL if they can recommend geriatric behavioral specialist that they work with.
When I needed this service in a situation similar to yours, arrangements were made promptly and the examiner came to the AL, and included me in the assessment, seated behind LO, to indicate by nodding my head ”yes” or “no” when LO was answering accurately (or not).
Hard as it was to hear and be a part of, that evaluation confirmed our original concerns and allowed us to assume responsibilities as POAs, and most important to realize that LO was a vulnerable victim of dementia, in need of our care and concern, but no longer able to have reasonable judgment in terms of her own welfare.
Do this both for him, and also for yourself. You deserve to make needed decisions with a clear picture of what you and he are dealing with.
Be good to yourself. This is never easy.
If the father is in the earlier stages of dementia it's easy to get one over during an assessment with a bit o showtiming.
People pass dementia tests all the time even when dementia is obvious to the people who see them everyday.
The testers do not care what a caregiver or family member has to say.
No one can showtime 24/7 and that's when they run into trouble.
Your father’s brain is broken . Stop negotiating with him . He would not be able to pull this off unless you helped him or hired someone to help him . My mother used to say she was leaving AL also , said she was going to call a taxi . She never did . You did the right thing walking out.
I'd be asking him, "What's your big hurry? After I just negotiated an upgrade, you want to suddenly drop that entire plan and get a HOUSE? With 24/7 caregivers that cost a fortune? Your money will be gone quick, then what?"
Throw on some GUILT...."Why should I help you arrange ANYTHING, if you are going to change your mind just after I've gone to all this trouble for you?"
I'd want to know what is so AWFUL about the AL? Doesn't he have to sell his house to get another one? That is major stress right there. Probably planning on buying a house near you, to call you constantly and drive you crazy?
I'd give him the number of a Geriatric Care company, and tell him, "You are on your own. I'm done." He thinks you'll take care of everything while he complains, like every other adult child of a dementia senior? His brain is focused on himself, and it will only get worse. He's used to ordering you around, running the show. Look how he CAVED when you stood strong on your position. Don't let him control you or take away the prime of your life! You don't get that time back.
He's 87 and had his long life. What he fantasizes about and what he NEEDS are entirely different. Stay strong!