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GardenArtist, depends on the state, but sometimes if you are planning on doing the spenddown while the Medicaid application is pending, you are allowed to spend down ONLY on medical expenses.
As others have mentioned, a lot depends on the amount remaining, and whether you have enough eligible spending items now to take care of the excess. Vs. saving it for extras later, and potentially losing the remaining balance either to Medicaid and/or some of it to the agency/trustee. One nice thing about pooled trusts is that they know the regs inside and out. Family member trustees often make mistakes which can "taint" the entire trust.
In the state of Massachusetts, when you apply for Medicaid, you must "spend down," e.g. you are allowed to own $2, 000 and under in assets. Also, be prepared for the 5 yr lookback (keep 5 yrs back of checkbook transactions).
My mom had a good amount of $$ left when my dad passed. She and my brother chose a medicaid trust.,,.,With this you put your $ into a trust and can not touch it for 5 years. After 5 years you can get medicaid. However, something that I am unaware of happened and mom did not get medicaid after the 5 years. It looks like money was taken out of the trust before the 5 year look back period which would make her non-eligible for medicaid now...Another 5 year period has to start and the $$ can not be touched. That wont happen and mom is almost 91. My mom's 3/4 million will be gone before she passes.
After reading Mr. Heiser's answer, I would change my response to avoiding a pooled trust, especially one managed by a charity. Some are well run, others are not. Adding another entity in the mix removes a lot of control over spending that you would otherwise have.
Have you considered spending down while applying as Medicaid pending, if that's an option? I'm not anywhere near as knowledgeable as others on Medicaid issues, but I think I'd rather have control over a spenddown than surrender control and disbursement of fudns to a charity.
A "Pooled Trust" is a trust managed by a local charity that, pursuant to federal law, "pools" all contributions from the various people who contribute to the trust, and in exchange, pays out to the contributors/beneficiaries on an as-needed basis. Upon the death of the contributor, the trust will either retain any unused funds left from the original contribution amount to add to the "pot," or possibly allow distribution out to named individuals (varies by state). Note, however, that some states only allow contributions to a Pooled Trust if the contributor is under age 65.
A spend-down is simply spending any excess assets of the individual whose money it is and who is planning on applying for Medicaid, on things that benefit that individual. As such, should the individual need some of that money later, it will not be there. With the Pooled Trust, that money continues to be available to benefit the individual for the rest of their life.
I have a section of my book that discusses Pooled Trusts in more detail, as well as other trust-planning techniques (www.MedicaidSecrets.com).
You've gotten good responses on a variety of issues that will affect your decision. Now it's time to sit down and do projects, such as a cost-benefit analysis and break-even analysis to quantify which would be better. That can help put the decision on less of an emotional basis.
NYC - you are on a way very fortunate to be able to have some decision making ability in medicaid by living in NYS. Most states do not have groups or non-profits out there pulling together to do pooled trusts.
To me this is more a management & availability issue that you as your parents dpoa & mpoa need to decide upon. A pooled trust is going to mean dealing with moms asset-based finances on a continuous basis from day 1 of medicaid eligibility till possibly whenever mom dies or the income ceases. Is the PT paperwork & compliance & provider network that the pooled trust, something you can easily deal with? Also another factor to consider is will your parent be keeping & staying in their home and so they could better need & use the flexibility with their income that a pooled trust is more flexible to allow for. Spend down in assets for Medicaid eligibility is just that....all extra $ has to be spent down so gone forever from their bank account.
So how much $ are you talking about? Would it be better done in a spent down on other things first & foremost (before the PT or medicaid) is in control?......what I'm getting at is: has your elder already done & fully paid for a preneed funeral & burial?; have they gotten all legal done (will, DPOA, MPOA , etc) and paid for this?; have they gotten done & paid for any needed & neglected dental work? Ditto on eyeglasses & hearing aids and with a backup pair on these too?...as these will go MIA in a facility; If they have their home & plan to stay in it, have they gotten all maintenance or total replacement on the majors (roof, AC, heat) done & fully paid for? if there is a mortgage (horrors!!) is this going to be paid off?; If she's staying in her home, how much can she pay for in advance on house costs (like insurance, utilities, taxes) from those funds? Medicaud either doesn't cover or covers minimally dental, hearing & vision, so if you want ths done, it's all out of pocket by family. For my mom, she did a huge amount of spend down in dental and on retrospect was most excellent as good oral health & their ability to bite down & eat whatever really does mean a healthier & more enjoyable life.
My point in this is if mom has 50/80k in savings (this unfortunately really isn't very much $), all could be pretty easily spent down in a couple of months on the above (dental alone could swallow - LOL - the whole 50/80k), then mom applies for Medicaid and all her income goes to pay for the NH with just her little personal needs trust at the NH ($60 I think is the amount for NYS) to deal with. This could be a lots more manageable for you than dealing with a PT if she's moving into a facility. If your elder is staying at their home, my understanding is that the PT allows them around $800 a mo for living costs, which either you or your elder needs to be able to manage on that amount.
It's a lot to think about as its not a "one fits all" as your elders needs and capabilities is unique for them as well as what your (& the other members of your family) can do for the elder is as well (both in actual time to help them out or in your own ability to help financially). Good luck and let us know what you all decide to do, as we learn from each other.
Also, you have to consider how much she has and how much her care, including meds, hairdresser, clothes will cost for the next 5 years. We set up a trust 3 years ago and now My Mom needs that money to pay for the nursing home so I am now trying to disolve the trust. Do not waste her money if she does not have substantial assets. My mom had $300,000 when I set up the trust. and the trust must be in effect for 5 years to work.
A pooled trust in a Trust that makes people eligible for Medicade by taking their money and "pooling" it in a Trust with other people's pooled trusts to get a bigger return on your investment. I also recommend a certified elder law attorney in your state. You can also do annuities and have other options. In our state it is difficult to find a Medicaid bed in a good nursing home. Sometimes spend down in a good facility that accepts Medicaid after the money runs out is the best option in our state but finding the most experienced certified Elder Law attorney in your area is your best option.
Nycguy, I am not familiar with the term "pooled trust". From the sounds of it all Mom's assets are deposited/transferred to a trust that, since you are talking about applying for Medicaid, will somehow be excluded from calculation for eligibility. You ask what is better for Mom. Are her assets significant? Is the purpose of the trust to setup a way to pay for care when needed?
What is best for Mom? I do not think there is a question there. When a person is self paying for care they have an option for nearly any facility based on their care needs only. If on Medicaid choices for care are severely limited to only facilities that accept it. Some of them are not very nice places. There are some nice Medicaid facilities but many require a period of self pay first. Most common in my area a person must self pay for usually two or three years before the facility will agree to assist with the Medicaid application.
Also Medicaid limits choice on type of room. Nearly everybody on Medicaid must share a room with another resident unless there is a contagious medical condition requiring a private room. Keep your mother's options open and plan on self paying. Maybe she has a long term care policy that would pay for her for awhile? If so, that should be taken into consideration too.
I'm glad that your wrote and I hope that people more educated in Medicaid law than I am will chime in.
All I can suggest is that you work with an elder law attorney who knows your state's Medicaid laws well. This is very tricky and states differ. You'll want to get this right.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
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APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
As others have mentioned, a lot depends on the amount remaining, and whether you have enough eligible spending items now to take care of the excess. Vs. saving it for extras later, and potentially losing the remaining balance either to Medicaid and/or some of it to the agency/trustee. One nice thing about pooled trusts is that they know the regs inside and out. Family member trustees often make mistakes which can "taint" the entire trust.
Have you considered spending down while applying as Medicaid pending, if that's an option? I'm not anywhere near as knowledgeable as others on Medicaid issues, but I think I'd rather have control over a spenddown than surrender control and disbursement of fudns to a charity.
A spend-down is simply spending any excess assets of the individual whose money it is and who is planning on applying for Medicaid, on things that benefit that individual. As such, should the individual need some of that money later, it will not be there. With the Pooled Trust, that money continues to be available to benefit the individual for the rest of their life.
I have a section of my book that discusses Pooled Trusts in more detail, as well as other trust-planning techniques (www.MedicaidSecrets.com).
And the financial breakeven point is going to be a major factor.
To me this is more a management & availability issue that you as your parents dpoa & mpoa need to decide upon. A pooled trust is going to mean dealing with moms asset-based finances on a continuous basis from day 1 of medicaid eligibility till possibly whenever mom dies or the income ceases. Is the PT paperwork & compliance & provider network that the pooled trust, something you can easily deal with? Also another factor to consider is will your parent be keeping & staying in their home and so they could better need & use the flexibility with their income that a pooled trust is more flexible to allow for. Spend down in assets for Medicaid eligibility is just that....all extra $ has to be spent down so gone forever from their bank account.
So how much $ are you talking about? Would it be better done in a spent down on other things first & foremost (before the PT or medicaid) is in control?......what I'm getting at is: has your elder already done & fully paid for a preneed funeral & burial?; have they gotten all legal done (will, DPOA, MPOA , etc) and paid for this?; have they gotten done & paid for any needed & neglected dental work? Ditto on eyeglasses & hearing aids and with a backup pair on these too?...as these will go MIA in a facility; If they have their home & plan to stay in it, have they gotten all maintenance or total replacement on the majors (roof, AC, heat) done & fully paid for? if there is a mortgage (horrors!!) is this going to be paid off?; If she's staying in her home, how much can she pay for in advance on house costs (like insurance, utilities, taxes) from those funds? Medicaud either doesn't cover or covers minimally dental, hearing & vision, so if you want ths done, it's all out of pocket by family. For my mom, she did a huge amount of spend down in dental and on retrospect was most excellent as good oral health & their ability to bite down & eat whatever really does mean a healthier & more enjoyable life.
My point in this is if mom has 50/80k in savings (this unfortunately really isn't very much $), all could be pretty easily spent down in a couple of months on the above (dental alone could swallow - LOL - the whole 50/80k), then mom applies for Medicaid and all her income goes to pay for the NH with just her little personal needs trust at the NH ($60 I think is the amount for NYS) to deal with. This could be a lots more manageable for you than dealing with a PT if she's moving into a facility. If your elder is staying at their home, my understanding is that the PT allows them around $800 a mo for living costs, which either you or your elder needs to be able to manage on that amount.
It's a lot to think about as its not a "one fits all" as your elders needs and capabilities is unique for them as well as what your (& the other members of your family) can do for the elder is as well (both in actual time to help them out or in your own ability to help financially). Good luck and let us know what you all decide to do, as we learn from each other.
What is best for Mom? I do not think there is a question there. When a person is self paying for care they have an option for nearly any facility based on their care needs only. If on Medicaid choices for care are severely limited to only facilities that accept it. Some of them are not very nice places. There are some nice Medicaid facilities but many require a period of self pay first. Most common in my area a person must self pay for usually two or three years before the facility will agree to assist with the Medicaid application.
Also Medicaid limits choice on type of room. Nearly everybody on Medicaid must share a room with another resident unless there is a contagious medical condition requiring a private room. Keep your mother's options open and plan on self paying. Maybe she has a long term care policy that would pay for her for awhile? If so, that should be taken into consideration too.
All I can suggest is that you work with an elder law attorney who knows your state's Medicaid laws well. This is very tricky and states differ. You'll want to get this right.
Good luck,
Carol