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She has multiple health issues. She monitors any communication he has, won't allow him to tell us anything, and seems to control his life. She refuses to inform us of any decline in her health - we only know because he broke down and called us when she went to hospital, but he's terrified of her reaction if she finds out. We are thinking of setting up a phone he can access outside the home when he goes on errands, just so he can have a line of communication with us. We just want to provide support and resources for him, and be available if the moment comes when he feels he can't handle it anymore. Merely trying to visit them stresses her out, and she has heart problems, so we are thinking that being up front with her about all this will just give her a heart attack, and/or get dad in trouble too. They have had trust issues in the past (his fault) but he changed and has been a good kind husband for many years. However he has a guilt complex and seems to think it's his penance to accept this treatment from her. We just want to give him the emotional support to stand up for himself and have some aspect of life separate from her. But is it wrong to keep such a secret from her, and play along like we know nothing, even though it is meant to keep from stressing her?

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Wonder if it just works this way - opposites attract as they say: Ms In-Charge meets Mr Nice Guy & Boom! it's a perfect match... Or Mr Confident & Ms Helpful 💘

Long held relationship patterns are hard to change - but ARE possible. With support, hopefully your Dad can take over 'driving the bus' as BarbB said. If not 'driving' Mother (if he wants her to stay in control for herself) at least to drive his own life.

Sounds like you are placing yourself as a great advocate.
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Try to help your dad understand that "caring" for someone doesn't necessarily mean doing it yourself. It means ensuring they are safe and cared for and that HE is safe and cared for. Sometimes that means one or both going to a facility where they'll be cared for by professionals.

No one should expect to be as good at caregiving as trained professionals, and your dad shouldn't expect to be a nurse, doctor, psychiatrist AND a guilt-ridden spouse all at once.
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My stepfather was a bit like this with my mother and even though he could see some of her requests were unreasonable, he would comply anyway. At one point I had to intervene, as she would kick him on the shin - if she didn't like him 'interrupting' - when he participated in conversations.
Helping him proved more difficult that you would expect. Although he could see the need for mental health evaluation, he would enable my mother whenever they met with anyone. So everything was downplayed and nothing got done for a very long time. I got very frustrated.
All I could do was support them the degree that I could. Eventually my mother was diagnosed after a hospital stay and then it was easier to deal.
In your case I would get a phone for your dad and at the point where he needs more input from you he has a life line.
Good luck!
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Personally I would think that any stress she gets from you helping your father is something she has brought and is bringing on herself, and that is her problem, no one else's. Provide him with a mobile phone possibly you could do it with pre-programmed number if that would help, put it on a PAYG or simple calls/texts only package and let him ring when he is in a position to do so. Either she is seriously ill if telling her will give her a heart attack, or she has got you all wound round her little finger and is abusing your father by her behaviour. Some might think he was better off out of the situation one way or another. But they are two adults and can make their own decisions on what is and what is not acceptable to each of them, but I see no reason he should not have a phone she doesn't know about, he is entitled to some life she doesn't control.
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Does your father have a spiritual adviser, minister, rabbi, priest, he can talk to? It sounds like he does not have an accurate idea of guilt and may be punishing himself unnecessarily. Your idea of establishing a way for him to communicate with you and receive your support is a great idea. My take is that you and he do not have to discuss this with your mom. You are not lying at all. His business/your business.
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whatever you can do to support your dad in this, you should do. There are many problems to be addressed in this situation I would think but since you asked about having an outside line of communication for him, I would say that is an important start, it will help give him some sense of support.

There are many kinds of lies, not all kinds are wrong
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CeCe114: Imho, perhaps you should speak to the social worker at their town's COA (Council on Aging). Their issues may be in need of a trained professional.
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Mom is in the hospital now? If so, what if you told the Discharge Planner that it would be an UNSAFE DISCHARGE to let her go back home. That Dad is getting unable to care for her and she is ruining his health.

They may decide to send her to Rehab so they see how see is over a longer period of time. - it’s usually a few weeks. That wouldn’t be your Dad’s fault.

if you go that route, keep repeating UNSAFE DISCHARGE - those are the magic words.

Your poor Dad needs to catch a break somehow. This could negatively affect his health, at his age. At least he’d get a short rest before she came home.
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This is a terrible situation and quite honestly at this age and stage, I do not think things will change. I feel first of all you should sit down with both of them and tell them your observations and feelings and tell them that at this stage, this cannot continue. You must be assured that they will henceforth have total open and free communications without any resentment or repercussions. Also make it very plain to them they are your parents and as such, like it or not, they have an obligation to keep you fully in the loop in every way at all times and you are going to make sure of this. Then I would seek the services of an eldercare attorney as to what role and how you should play in terms of caring for them, i.e. Power of Attorney, etc., an updated will, etc. And if all else fails, by all means make it possible for your father to be in touch with you - but how will you do this so she does not find out? You have to make sure this will remain private. He also must be made to understand the past is the past and he has to set rules and boundaries NOW AND MAKE HER STICK TO THEM. You might want to think about placing them to be cared rather than having it all dumped on you or on your father. Your mother must have this level of control by her removed at once - no matter how it is done. She created the problems and now has to live with the consequences. Same for him, past is past and now is now and he has to get tough with her.
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Isthisrealyreal Oct 2021
Hahahaha, my mom would make or try to make your life a living hell if you pulled this with her. If she don't get her way, everyone will pay until she does. Hahaha, I wish it were that simple.

Letting dad know you are there and letting him live with his choices is the safest way in situations like these.

Makes you understand his indiscretions though.
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Go with her to talk to her PCP then a Psychologist then a talk to your father and have him do the same and ASK him what he wants or wants to find out about options, I am available to help you if you need help. Bless you during this difficult time ! Dr Jack Grenan
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Your sweet dad needs support and empathy. It sounds like he is doing a great job in caring for your mom, but the stress of 'keeping secrets' will come back to haunt him--esp if something major happens and you all had no idea she had anything wrong. Keeping secrets in his mid 80's and living in fear of mom's temper (I am assuming, perhaps wrongly) that she will blow a fuse if you kids are involved.

I would definitely get a cell phone just for dad to use to call out. He can call the kids and at least have a place to 'dump' his worries and feelings.

No doubt he is used to kowtowing to mom. Wow, and she's only mid-70's? That horrifies me as I am only 10 years away from that I worry so much about being a burden on my family.

It's NOT just about your mom. Dad is a 50% part of this equation. If MOM doesn't want to see family, arrange to see dad on your own.

I wouldn't put up cameras, you already know what it's like in the house. A line of communication would be a good start. Take it from there. For dad, knowing you're there for him would go a long way.
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CeCe114 Oct 2021
Thank you
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It sounds like your dad is being held hostage to Mom's mental illness and/or dementia.

She should not be driving the bus.

I think you woukd do well to think of their needs individually right now. Mom needs more care than dad can give. If the present circumstances continues, chances are pretty good that dad will pass first.

Mom is currently hospitalized? Get dad out of the home. Get him into a facility, even temporarily, send him on a trip or have him stay with one of you.

Brother then informs SW at the hospital that there is no care available at home for mom. She needs an approriate placement, rehab, short term psych hold to get meds sorted or LTC.
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Yeah - she's in her mid 70s. I totally empathize with my Dad wanting to keep the peace. That's why I feel if we do have some communication or if he wants to turn to a support group or whatever, that it's ok that she not know about it - so he can have support and yet she's not stressed out wondering what he's telling people.
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CeCe114,

There really isn't much you or anyone else can do about what your father lives with unless he wants change. It certainly sounds like there's dementia because the secretiveness and paranoia are classic signs of it. However unless there's an actual diagnosis and someone has legal conservatorship/guardianship there is really nothing anyone can do.
You could speak to the police department where your parents live and explain to them what your concerns are. They may be willing to do regular wellness checks on them. Your parents don't have to know you had any involvement. The police will not tell them. Wellness checks from the police are not unusual for people who are considered vulnerable. Like handicapped people, mentally ill, and elderly. The police will stop by to check on them regularly if someone talks to them and lets them know what's going on. Please talk to them. Your mother will have no choice but to let the cops in. I'm sure she will not be agreeable and cooperative with them. They will come to their own conclusions because dementia will be obvious to them and that both of your parents are at risk. The police will contact APS and social services. Then they will contact you. It will be easier to get conservatorship/guardianship over both of them appointed to you by the court if APS and social services are involved. Good luck.
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CeCe114 Oct 2021
Well, I might consider that as a last resort. I am planning to meet with a geriatric care manager, and maybe my dad will agree to have that person checking in regularly (I imagine it could be sold as part of the after-care package they get after being discharged from the hospital or from rehab.)
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Sometimes perspective is helpful. Since I don't know everything I tried on a few:

Key here may be "he broke down" and "is terrified." This suggests that one or both of them has a mental health issue. Who does Mom trust? Anyone? Is an abusive situation for Dad? Whether or not he thinks it is his penance is incidental.

Someone needs POA for both of them. If Dad dies, what happens to Mom? Often the caregiver goes first! If you have POA for Dad this also gives you the ability to make decisions about his care including arranging counseling with an appropriate geriatric social worker. Mom can't control this because you will. If she tries to prevent his care APS can be brought in.

Get a care plan in place for both of them. Preface it with long term planning: in case something happens to Dad, you need to be able to help Mom.

Mom may unaware of her own behavior because she is scared about her personal situation and dependence. Someone may have to tell her that if she doesn't take him into consideration she will drive him away; what will happen to her then?

If she insists that she can take care of herself, let her. Dad gets to go out and socialize, have hobbies, spend time online with friends, whatever. If Mom can really be alone then she gets the privacy she seems to want.

Finally, people sometimes revert to childish behaviors as they age and become frail. Is this a "prove that you love me" situation? If so, all of you can play a part to make Mom feel more loved and secure. That takes a lot of pressure off of both of them.
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CeCe114 Oct 2021
My brother is POA for both of them - he lives several hours away and he has a rather demanding job making it difficult for him to visit regularly. I have considered some of those things you mention and have asked him to look into options for various scenarios in the future: (assisted care, long term nursing care, etc., closer to him.) I live a much farther distance away but would be willing to take in my father if he ever ends up on his own, and if he was OK with that. My mother has always been a controlling type, seemed to mellow out a bit in her 50s and 60s, was actually pleasant to be around. But as various physical health issues cropped up, she went back to being secretive and controlling (she's now mid 70s, he's in his 80's) - she claims she doesn't want to "impose" on anyone so anytime we plan to visit she tries to talk us out of it, and Dad says it just stresses her out when we visit (despite the fact that I and my brothers have always been kind and loving towards her.) She's made an effort it seems to actually push us all away, relying only on Dad for her care, and she has succeeded in this, as we rarely visit because we don't want to cause either of them more stress. One positive outcome of her controlling nature, she has done a lot of preparation, research, etc. for their future. Of course, all that information is somewhere in their home where we can't access it! But she did assign my brother as POA, and he and I share information. I'm trying to set up a consultation with a geriatric care manager so that at least Dad has someone nearby to reach out to.
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What a shame that your dad has to suffer like this I’m afraid it’s time someone stood up for him and tell him this is not allowed what a miserable life the poor soul must have stand up to her ill or not ill she can’t be allowed to treat people like this feel sorry for this man
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My father had paranoid personality disorder and when he developed vascular dementia his controlling ways only got worse - most of it directed toward my mother. Mom was his caregiver and she stood solidly in his corner, not wanting us kids to get involved, even when one of my siblings was exploiting my father financially. My mother was competent; it was her husband and her money so I went along, even when I didn't agree. Until the day Mom's health was compromised and Dad pushed Mom down. Mom wasn't badly injured, but she could have been. That was when things changed from "it shouldn't be happening" to "it's dangerous". I challenged my father's competence and gained guardianship, and permanently split the family.

It's painful to watch one parent "taking" abuse by the other; but I still believe if they are competent, it is ultimately their decision. I supported my mother in other ways the best I could and I would encourage you to do the same with your Dad. But realize you don't ever _know_ what's really going on in their marriage. When I was about 12 years old I went on a road trip with my parents and they were sniping at each other all day. Our hotel room had two double beds and I was shocked that night when right after their latest snipe, they roll over to each other, kissed, exchanged "I love you"s, and went to sleep in each other's arms. And here I thought they were having a difficult time being in the same room... They were married more than 68 years and her devotion never waivered regardless of how outrageous or disrespectful my father became or how the stress came to impact her own health. Don't be surprised if your father displays the same degree of fortitude.
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CeCe114 Oct 2021
Yes, it sounds like we have the same situation, just the mom and dad are reversed! I don't believe Mom is physically abusive, but very controlling, and my dad has tolerated it for years. I'm trying to walk the same line you did, respecting my father's wishes, but wanting to be there if he needs me. What is "vascular" dementia?
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I would advise against any deception in your family. Your mom's paranoia needs to be addressed by a competent geriatric psychiatrist. Your father may also benefit from dealing with his guilt by seeing a therapist. Please counsel your dad to get them both the mental health care they need.

If physical health problems are seeming to overwhelm your parents' lives, it may be time for them to have others living with them. Options include: people staying with them during the day (sitters, home health aides, family, friends...), going to an adult day program during the day, moving in with family who are ale to provide caregiving during the day, or moving into assisted living. If this is the problem, please do not delay in helping them to move into a different living situation.
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BurntCaregiver Oct 2021
Like that's going to happen. A person as secretive and controlling as CeCe114's mother is going to visit a geriatric psychiatrist. As stated the mother won't even let the father talk to his own child on the phone. The chances of these people allowing home/health aides to come into their home are slim and none.
Adult day care or moving out of their home isn't going to happen either. If the parents are mentally competent there really isn't anything anyone can do. They can live their lives as they wish. The only way something can be done about this situation is if the court legally appoints someone to be conservator or guardian to make their decisions.
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Im sure your Dad is able to pick up the phone and call whenever he wants.

You could call and chat with both mom and Dad, then tell Dad to call you back when mom is taking shower or, go visit yourself to see how things are.
Your mom may be wanting to keep things secret because she has concerns if what you may do when finding out the issues.
Do they think you want them to go into a Nursing Home?
Rather you agree with everything they do or don't do, it's your parents business what they want to share with others.
Im sure they wouldn't agree 100% with your choices either.
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CeCe114 Oct 2021
Well, yes, to some extent you have a point - I and my siblings have all been pulled in and pushed away multiple times. The past few years mom has managed to push us all away pretty effectively, and this is also Dad insisting he can handle things. We have phone calls and face time - she does all the talking, Dad sits beside her smiling. We never get Dad alone. They share a cell phone. However he DID pick up the phone and call recently when she went to the hospital, something we never would have known about if he hadn't told us. But then, afterwards, radio silence. From my perspective, I and my siblings have always been kind, supportive and loving towards her. But I do believe she is paranoid that we will "put her in a home" even when we try to convince her we respect her and Dad's decisions and just want to be in their lives somehow. Years ago I let go of this situation when I realized it was Dad's choice - and I just told him he could reach out any time and we would be there to listen, and if he felt it was time, to help him and Mom transition. I felt his recent call was a cry for help, but he has been afraid to reach out again for fear of stressing out mom, who has heart issues.
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You don't give your mom's age, which would be helpful in figuring out if this is mental illness or dementia/ALZ. The behavior you describe (if she has dementia) is called Shadowing. I know a man who is very dedicated to and determined to care for his wife with ALZ himself and she does everything you described about your mom. Eventually he began to drink because of the extreme stress and he finally broke down and hired an in-home aid to help distract her during the day (and it was challenging -- he had a very experienced nurse doing it).

Lying to help your mother is called a "therapeutic fib" so there is nothing morally wrong with it. You will need to do this to get her in to a medical exam. Once there (and preferably one of her children should go with her, instead of or with your dad) discretely hand the staff a pre-written note asking for a cognitive/memory test and why you're concerned for her. They will gladly do it -- this is how we got my MIL diagnosed. Once you have a diagnosis your family will be better informed of how to move forward.

And I agree to get your dad a cell phone for his own sanity.
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CeCe114 Oct 2021
Thank you! She's in her mid 70's. That's a good idea - I just want to help advise my father, who is in his 80's (good health so far, touch wood.)
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Get Dad a cell phone. And set up cameras with sound in the house so you can watch and hear what is going on.
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CeCe114 Oct 2021
I feel cameras would be an invasion of their privacy. I'll see if Dad can agree to communicating with us on the side though.
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Because They are classic signs of dementia,
They can still seem very bright As to hide the signs, Yet Her secretive and controlling ways, are telling you It is a mental problem!
I am and eldest son At 63 Who has been told by someone close That my mum has instructed the Carers Not to Give me any information About her health, If it wasn't for the cleaner Keeping me up-to-date yet she only visits once a week, I would be in a terrible state of worry as I am anyway ,But most of the time I am left in the dark! I do feel for you And do agree with others who have said about your dad's secret phone would be a big help for you and dad , but also your Mam at the end of the day ! This is just started happening to me, So at least I can plan For what is coming ahead
I pray That you make the right decision As I know it is a fine balance!
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CeCe114 Oct 2021
Wow- you really get it then. So does your mom live alone except for visits from care-givers and the housekeeper?
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Sounds like Mom has a mental illness. And poor Dad has to walk on egg shells which makes for a stressful situation.

Get him a phone one that pays as u go. If he has a car, tell him to hide it in the glove compartment only turning it on when he needs to use it.
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I'm with Grandma1954 - can see 2 sides. So I'm trying to wear everyone's shoes here..

Rights & Respect surround your question.

Mother can keep HER matters secret (as her right) BUT by disclosing to Father, it puts the burdon on him to stay silent too. He will have to choose to respect her wishes regarding her health or not.

I strongly believe Father has a right to support for HIMSELF as well as for his caring role. He has every right to talk about his own life & his struggles as a carer.

So supporting him, helping him find support, helping him to have lines of communication are great ideas. If this includes a secret phone, well.. he is an adult, allowed to own a phone afterall. Allowed to visit others/spend time away from Mother too.

CeCe you could be writing my future life... it's only a step-down from that now. My Dad is succeeding at walking that fine line of respect & rights.

My approach is to put each request through a 'common sense' & safety sieve. Leave the coo-coo out.
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CeCe114 Oct 2021
Thanks for your response! I saw this coming a few years ago. It's too bad that it has to be this way, and it took me awhile to figure out how to detach from this melodrama - but the act of my dad reaching out is enough to make me try to reengage. I'm hopeful but also trying to not have any expectations, he might revert to his comfortable status of avoiding conflict - just want to give him a lifeline and support if he decides to take it.
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I can see two sides of this.
If she has not been declared incompetent she can decide who gets informed as to her status.
I can understand your father NEEDS to talk to someone and vent, voice that he is afraid, he needs comfort and reassurance. And I understand that he wants to keep you informed as well.
all that said..
I would get him a phone that he can use while he is out. I suggest that he keep it someplace where she will not find it. And keep it silent or off unless he is using it so that there will be no way it would ring and she would hear it.
You probably can not change her mind about keeping you informed but tell her that you would probably worry less if you were kept in the loop.
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I would absolutely do that. He is essentially an abuse victim. You can’t abandon him just because you feel it’s being dishonest to her. People with dementia cannot see logic, and sometimes their worst traits are the ones that are dominant. I’d do what’s best for both of them. It won’t kill her to have this a little secret from her, but it may save him.
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CeCe114 Oct 2021
How do I know if it's dementia? She's always been a controlling type, it just got worse as her physical health has declined. The few times I've been able to visit in the last few years, she is still sharp mentally, doesn't hallucinate or anything, just is always suspicious of others motives and overly controlling.
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